What exactly does Flagyl do?

Does it kill the Cryptic formi outright, including the contents.....ie, ALL of it. One stage process.

Or does it open up the Cryptic form, releasing the contents for the other antibioticsi to kill?  Like a two stage process. 

Does no-one know the answer?
That would be correct: nobody knows quite what the mechanism of Flagyli against Cpni is. It is clear, though, that without other antibioticsi around, it doesn't do much against Cpn.
OK... thank you
This is the answer I found: Mechanism of Action: Metronidazolei is amebicidal, bactericidal, and trichomonicidal. Unionized metronidazole is readily taken up by anaerobic organisms and cells. Its selectivity for anaerobic bacteria is a result of the ability of these organisms to reduce metronidazole to its active form intracellularly. The electron transport proteins necessary for this reaction are found only in anaerobic bacteria. Reduced metronidazole then disrupts DNA's helical structure, thereby inhibiting bacterial nucleic acid synthesis. This eventually results in bacterial cell deathi. Metronidazole is equally effective against dividing and nondividing cells. Link: http://sprojects.mmi.mcgill.ca/cases/drugs/Metronidazol/CP_metronidazole...< Raven

Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpni. CAPi since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NACi,BHRT, MethyB12 FIRi Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath

That's Flagyli's usual mechanism of action, but doesn't explain its effectiveness against Cpni, since Cpn isn't an anaerobe.
I have always thought cryptic body is anaerobic and that is why it can not be destroyed by commonly used bacteriostatics.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFSi and many problems 30 years

Oh, the bacteriostatics in the CAPi work quite well against most anaerobic bacteria. It's Cpni in particular that resists those bacteriostatics, by going into the cryptic state, where it largely is shut down. (On the molecular level, many of the bacteriostatics operate like a monkey wrench thrown into some machinery; if the machinery is running, it sucks up the wrench and grinds itself into pieces, but if it is idle, the wrench just bounces off.) That lack of activity is mostly what defines the cryptic state (aka "persistent state"): the germ isn't doing much, although there is some activity and even a little growth. But being active is a different question from being aerobic; there are anaerobic bacteria which are very active (such as gut bacteria), and there are also aerobic bacteria which go into a persistent state in which they are unaffected by antibioticsi. Aerobic means using oxygen; and each Cpn cell is surrounded by a human cell which has an oxygen supply. Oxygen diffuses across membranes very readily, so that gives the Cpn cell an oxygen supply, too. It thus never has to work anerobically. It might choose to, for reasons of its own, but never has to. Most of Cpn's energy comes from stealing ATP, which is probably best regarded as being neither aerobic nor anaerobic, since ATP is the end product of both aerobic and anerobic metabolism.

Now, Cpn contains some of the chemistry that anaerobic cells have. In particular, it has a gene for ferredoxin, which is used in anaerobic respiration. Ferredoxin is the molecule that passes an electron to metronidazolei, activating it and turning it into a free radical that goes around chewing on DNA and other vital molecules. But that doesn't mean Cpn is ever an anaerobe: it doesn't necessarily use that ferredoxin for anaerobic metabolism, but rather might be using it for something else. (It isn't even necessarily making that ferredoxin in the first place; having a gene for something doesn't mean it's expressed.) And activation by ferredoxin isn't necessarily how metronidazole works against Cpn; that's just something that has been suggested as a possibility, not something that has been tested in detail.

Thank you for the explanation, Norman.

Stratton/Wheldon protocol 02/2006 - 10/11 for CFSi and many problems 30 years

Yes, Norman

That may be the closest thing to "layman's terms"

ever!   For us non-chemists, it is a huge help.

Rica

 

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abxi protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxyi 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyli 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMSi EDSSi 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

Norman

You said 

"without other antibioticsi<i< around, it doesn't do much against Cpni."

Can you elaborate on that? 

Do you mean one should have other antibiotics in the system at the time of taking flagyli like the same day or just make sure you are on a CAPi?

Thanks 

 

 

 

DAILY:  NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

Uh, what's the difference? If you're on a CAPi, there are antibioticsi in your system 24 hours a day.

There is a difference

When I pulse with Flagyli one day a week I do not use any other antibiotic that day I am getting results but wonder if I could get better results 

DAILY:  NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

Homina, our protocol is pretty much this: 200mg doxycycline DAILY, 250mg azithromycin on each Monday, Wednesday and Friday, PLUS, for five days out of each twenty-eight days, we ADD 1200-1500mg a day of metronidazolei or tinidazole.

You are doing something completely different. No, we do NOT take a 'day off' or a 'week off' other antibioticsi when we pulse the nidazole.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

OK Thanks

I would still like Norman to comment more on why Falgyl works best in conjunction with the two other abxi<

I see your points Mac but need to point out

My Doc recomended once in a while taking a break from the protocol .. he did not say weekly but left it up to my discretion  .. I asked him if that would create resistance and his response was Cpni grows slowly

The once a week pulse  (which I am doing with my Doc's office approval) came from Paul (who has made considerable progress) and he also did this with his Docs knowledge so I would not say I am doing something completely outrageous

In addition ,while I am on the protocol most of the time, it really stresses my kidneys and I need to give them a break once in a while, so I do 

I think the question needs to be addressed why am I doing the once a week pulse? Because I want to accelerate my progress and it worked for Paul  

So far so good doing it this way  I'm not saying others should do this and I can still make adustments but this is working for me so far

DAILY:  NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

Homina, I did not say you are doing something completely outrageous. I said you are doing something completely different from the protocol most of us here use.  

Of course you are free to take whatever meds you choose, whenever you choose to use them, however often you choose.  Newbies, however, who have no background in this,  should be periodically reminded when a member is posting about using a protocol not normally advised here.

My response was directly related to the comment you posted, "When I pulse with Flagyli<i< one day a week I do not use any other antibiotic that day I am getting results but wonder if I could get better results"

Perhaps you would get those 'better results', if you were using the actual protocol devised by the physicians  at Vanderbilt and refined by Dr. Wheldon, which is the one I referred to, and is commonly used by the members here. 

Taking sporadic abxi, on and off, on and off,  is one of the methods used in medical trials to DELIBERATELY create resistance.   If this is how you and your doctor choose to treat your infection, then you should probably be consulting your doctor as to "When I pulse with Flagyli< one day a week I do not use any other antibiotic that day I am getting results but wonder if I could get better results" .

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

I am glad that my question produced such a good discussion !

Now.....about something else that Flagyli does.....

 

I started my first pulse of Flagyl a couple of weeks back. 2 hours after 

dose i was out shopping and my vision started to go. Big black blotches

came across my visual field and gradually coalesced to make it difficult

to see. This has happened before and I took 6 glucose tablets. As I was

taking the tabs I started to get the more typical Hypoglycemic

symptoms . My vision returned and I headed home, feeling a bit shaky still. I took my blood sugar 30 mins after taking the glucose and it was 2.8, so I ate a meal. I didn't take another dose of Flagyl that day, but I did the following day.... this time with a more substantial breakfast, and I was fine, and did not have another Hypo attack for the rest of the 4 day pulse that I managed.

When I started the second pulse, last week, I made sure I took the

Flagyl with a  good breakfast..... but the same thing happened. 2 hours

later, whilst at the shops, my vision started to go again very quickly. I

took the Glucose, got my vision back, and headed home. This time

when i got home, my blood sugar was normal. I did not have another

vision attack for the rest of the 4 day pulse.

I know Flagyl can cause Hypoglycemia, but is that what this is, or is it

an acute Porphyriai episode with the first dose? I know that Porphyria

has to be treated with Glucose.... but is that because the glucose is

doing something other than addressing low sugar? 

Going off the other antibioticsi for a day, you'll still have some in your system; the azithromycin, in particular, has a 3-day half-life. But generally it doesn't help to go off the bacteriostatic antibiotics; if you need a break, postpone the Flagyli instead.

As for why Flagyl should be taken with other antibiotics, one reason that has been offered is that Cpni needs to be in the cryptic state, for Flagyl to affect it; and the other antibiotics put it into the cryptic state. Another is that bacteria have repair proteins, which could fix the DNA damage that Flagyl does to them, and the other antibiotics suppress that repair by inhibiting protein synthesis. But these mechanisms are tentative; the experiments haven't been done to nail them down precisely. Still, that something changes dramatically when Flagyl is combined with the other antibiotics is clear, and not just from the Vanderbilt experiments: doctors in general have a lot of experience with Flagyl, mostly taken on its own; and they don't regard it as producing the sort of reactions we expect from it when taken with other antibiotics -- neither the initial distress, nor the long-term improvement.

Great question and answers Mr. Yarvin. My thanks to you all. MM

2002:CFSi. (2008-09:CPNi - CAPi/5 pulses)  3/2010: Restart CAP: 200Doxy/250Zith-MWF/Tinii pulses. 6/2010: HighBP/Benicar, 7/2010: EBVi, HHV6. 2012: 6,000 IU daily vit. D., Citioline CDP choline = sleep improvement dramatic. 

Thanks for that explanation Norman... That makes sense

Correct Mac I did say what I said about not taking other antibiotics the day I use Flagyl 

I may have to revise that kidneys permitting 

I did not say I was using abxi sporadically and  I have no problem mentioning what I am doing to my Doc  as far as my pulses goes

At any rate I am gettting good results doing what I'm doing

I am a little skeptical that resistance occurs that rapidly but will investigate 

 

DAILY:  NACi 2400MG , DHEAi sublingual , vit D3 , multi vits,./ Three times  a week: B12 injections (Hydroxycobalamin). Deer antler./  Once every few months methyl B12 Methyl injections

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