Cpnhelp.org - Chlamydia Pneumoniae Treatment

Hey Jim,

I have been meaning to catch up with you and discuss this. I agree that Vitamin C is simply incredible for immunei response/inflammationi problems. I am not as sure it does anything for secondary poprhyria though. It is always difficult to differentiate between the two of course but usually someone coming off a 2-5 day course of 3 x 500 mg per day of Flagyli is probably getting hammered by both but mostly from secondary porphyriai. Anyway that is just my take and I would love to hear from others on this.

This is my general take on symptoms and what causes them after experimenting with drugs that induce one or the other.

Immune response
Sinus, lung congestion
Aches and pains (muscle, joints, back, feet, etc.)
Tinnitusi
Flushing
Swelling/inflammation

Porphyria
Metallic taste
Peripheral neuropathy
Stomache pain
GI problems
Heart palpitations/tachycardia
Rashes/bumps
Brain fog
Some non specific pain 

- Paul 

JimK, good advice about the Vitamin C flush.  Wow you once needed 28 gms of C!  Good to know at least because in the past I have stopped short of that amount due to a kind of 'buzz' I get from it--Guess I might try to increase for that intended result.  I do something similar with Magnesium powder.  Works like dynamite, hmm?  LOL!

Thanks again!

KK2  :)

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Began Wheldon Protocol for rrmsi October '05.  Currently OFF all abxi since June 26, '08 due to severe porphyriai. Added LDN 4.5mg qhs October '07.  All supplementsi.

 Paul- You left out endotoxini effects which can get recycled through reabsorbtion in the gut, and have longer effects. Actually brain fog is common to all of them as well. And didn't you say pain symptoms were increased by porphyrin reactions? So inflammatory pain and the effects of porphyrins on pain overlap. Just wanting to say that there is more overlap here that makes sorting out not so easy.

You also left out one big non-differentiating symptom common to all of them which is the famous medical symptom "Feeling Like Crap" or FLC. I think this is a shared symptom by endotoxin, porphyriai, cytokinei reaction and even to drug reaction ie to flagyli itself regardless of reactions to it's effects.

But really, I'm presenting this Flush thing as a purely empirical approach. Try it and see if it works for your version of Flagyl Malaise. And see if it treats your FLC. It could be that the whole effect is due to  the major bowel evacuation it causes. it could be that there is more endotoxin than we think acccumulating which the Vitamin C takes care of. It could be an effect on Krebs cycle and ATP production which lightens you up and gives more energy. I have no idea, just know it has been helpful. 

On Wheldon/Stratton protocol for Cpni in CFSi/FMSi since December 2004.

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

Hey Jim,

I am just trying to sort out what it does and where it is useful. In very large doses, it is absolutely incredible for the symptoms that is does help and if it does address all symptoms but perhaps some less significantly that would be even more remarkable. It also should be noted that some of the people who have used this extensively like Dr. Cathcart (BTW I get the feeling he is kind of out there on the fringe.) have suggested using large doses of C with ABXi and feel it is synergistic, both in reducing symptoms and antbiotic efficacy.

It does also effect Cpni with lower doses improving Cpn growth significantly and higher doses impeding it. So I think if you are going to take Vitamin C, you should probably take a lot.

- Paul 

Paul, love your comments, some clarification-

I am taking massive doses of Vitamin C- how do we know that this is toxic to CPni...? I have heard this repeatedly but I haven't been able to locate a source- would you mind explaining a bit? I have seen the research that suggests that CPn benefits from some amount of Vitamin C, but I haven't seen the research that shows it is toxic at higher doses....?

Any information greatly appreciated! I appreciate your continuing input. Anyone else who wants to chime in, please do...I guess it also bears on Jim's original post as well...

 

Daunted,

This presumes of course that Cpni is effected similiarly to Chlamydia Trachomatis which is not much of a stretch... 

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=140...

"However, the growth of C. trachomatis was inhibited at vitamin C concentrations of 120 and 1,200 mg/dl."

- Paul 

Can we get Vitamin C that high? 120mg/dl-1200mg/dl ...? I thought the body was saturated at .8 mg/dl...? 

Thanks for the cite- I read the whole article which is availble full-text on line.

I guess I need to do some reading on how much Vitamin C we can accumulate in plasma. 

This article, here, http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/140/7/533.pdf documents the plasma concentration of Vitamin C both from oral and IV administration...the question is, I have no idea how their measurements (umol/L) translated into mg/dl- can anyone help??

According to the article with extensive oral administration (3G x 6 times a day or 2.5 G x 4 times a day) resulted in a plasma concentration of around 200 umol/L...anybody have any idea what that would mean in terms of mg/dl?

IV vitamin C appears to reach much higher plasma levels, naturally.

A mole of something is a number of grams equal to its molecular weight (176.13 for ascorbic acid).  Thus 200 umol/L would be 200 x 176.13 micrograms/liter, which is 3.5 mg/dl.

Thus taking Vitamin C orally might not inhibit CPni growth...? Is that right?

The maximum Vitamin C  concentration one can accumulate in the blood through taking it orally is about 3.5mg/dl...(see http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/140/7/533.pdf)...and that is with taking huge doses that most of us don't take.

Taking 1G of Vitamin C 4x a day as recommended is going to create a serum concentration of something like 1mg/dl by my calculations!

The previous article which Paul referenced for us found that up to 1.2 mg/dl of Vitamin C actually enhanced the growth of chlamydia trachomatis. They found that at 120 mg/dl it killed chlamydia but there's a huge unknown between 1.2mg/dl and 120mg/dl...

IV Vitamin C can create massive concentrations in the blood (70 times what can be attained by oral administration...!) but of course the problem there is that serum levels drop extremely fast afterwards.

Any comments or input from anyone? Perhaps I have figured this all wrong.

I want to emphasize that the Vitamin C flush may be very helpful (for instance, for binding to endotoxini and clearing the GI tract of endotoxin) and that Vitamin C in general may be helpful (for countering oxidative damage)... but what I don't see is a logical explanation for how taking more Vitamin C will actually KILL CPn, or how we could possibly reach serum levels high enough through taking Vitamn C to kill CPn.

Comments welcomed!

(I just ordered the powder to try the Vitamin C flush myself next week- also wonder if the so-called Myer's Cocktail where the give IV VItamin C, magnesium, etc., may be useful for some of us...anyone have any experience with this?) 

Daunted,

I will say that smaller doses of Vitamin C (500 mg) had a noticeably negative effect on me. But relatively large doses, say 6 grams every half hour, seemed to completely alleviate some symptoms. And since they were symptoms like congestion and tinnitusi, they were so obvious, observable, and quick to subside as to leave little question that Vitamin C was doing something. Whether it was something in my long term interest is another question of course. I would imagine (from reading of course) that some recreational drugs make one feel better but have negative longer term consequences. I am pretty sure that C does not have anything like this for negative consequences, just trying to illustrate the point.

Anyway since Jim, Marie, etc. are using the "flush" method so they are hitting the absolute maximum level possible, I would guess they are at the "therapeutic level" if such a thing exists. It should be noted also that most Vitamin C advocates think that all day IV infusions are the best way to do this and that would certainly track with the information at hand.

My opinion, that is admittedly based mostly from personal observation, is that Vitamin C in larger doses stops Cpni from making HSPi's by basically giving it a nutrient it wants... or making it happy. I would argue that Cpn has evolved with mammals to such an extent that it has found ways to convince its host to act in ways to its benefit. When its host fails to provide it adequate nutrition, energy, or when it ingests substances that are toxic to the Cpn, the organism excretes HSP (Heat Shock Proteins or stress proteins) to convince the host to stop doing whatever is not in the Cpn's interest.

- Paul 

You'd have a hard time convincing me that Vit C flush is promoting Cpni growth, based on tracking how I feel thereafter.

Paul- I think you are anthropomorphizing Cpn, as well as making a link between HSP60 and vitamin C, let alone HSP60 and host response that I don't see in any of the literature. HSP60 is a protein used by a lot of cells, including our own, to fold proteins for a number of purposes.

Cpn secretion of HSP60 is one of the main inducers of inflammatory cytokinei response from our own body. i don't see how this "convinces the host" to stop doing anything. Cpn does indeed regulate host cell activities like tryptophan uptake, and glucose uptake in order to regulate host cell production of ATP and other required nutrients. But this is a local regulation, within the host cell. You are making a big leap attributing whole-organism host reactions to Cpn.

On Wheldon/Stratton protocol for Cpn in CFSi/FMSi since December 2004.

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

Hey Jim,

I actually think there may be something positive in the very high dose Vitamin C therapy. I did present a little too much of the potential negatives though to make that clear.

I do not think I am anthropromorphizing Cpni here. I think they do make HSPi 60 when under stress. So it could be argued that Cpn try to control our behavior through releasing highly antigenic substances. In the case of something like concentrated high dose Vitamin C though, things could very well be different. Cpn could be "happy" (now that is anthropromorphizing) to see the vitamin it "covets" and then be overwhelmed and not prepared for the extraordinarily large dose that might have temporary or long term negative consequences for it. A possible reason is that during its evolution, it probably never saw doses that were not beneficial to it and might not be prepared to defend itself or "let the host know not to do this".

- Paui 

Jim,

 When you do this, does it take all day?  My point is when do you take everythings else during one of these flushes?

I wasn't trying to say that a Vitamin C flush promotes CPni growth, just that I would like more evidence that the levels of Vitamin C we take actaully inhibit CPn...(by this I mean our daily Vitamin C intake, not a flush..)

I read somewhere that level of Vit C in tissue and serum is highly different, maybe that explains all of this. I'm having the worst day of symptoms that I've had in probably a year so I am going to be flushing momentarily myself.

This is an interesting read. I will add htat the vitamin c flush seems helpful, the theoretical/biological ideas here are fun to think about.

One time I went to Thanksgiving with my sister driving. She went way out of her way to pick me up so we could have a sister day and be together pre holiday, and my hubby would come on t-day itself. Thus I would have a day with my family and a slumber party with Sissy.
The long drive and wierd food ( I usually never eat chocolate and sugar, but we had dairy queens), I drank no water so we did not have to stop constantly, and by the time I got there I felt like crud, FLC in jim-ese. It was late (traffic was horrible) and we went to bed. I got up to go to the bathroom many times and had to hang on to the wall with BOTH hands!!! I could hardly walk I was so discoordinated and off balance and weak!! I was saying to myself Oh God I'm going to have to go to the hopsital. When I awoke the next day I had to hang on to get to the kitchen and terried everyone. I sat down and drank I swear a half gallon of water and many grams of vitamin c. In one hour I was vastly better. I went on to have a fine day. SO dehydration and treatment is a bad combo, probably from a porphyria and endotxin angle. We have to drink water even if it means stopping in traffic etc. Vit c seems to work as a flush and is a good antioxidanti also so it will be beneficial on many fronts, not least of which is the brain healing angle.
marie

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On CAPi since Sept '05 for MSi, RAi, Asthmai, sciatica. EDSSi at start 5.5.(early cane) Now 6 (cane full time) Currently on: Doxyi 200, Azith 3x week, Tinii cont. over summer '07, back to pulses of flagyli winter '08 all supplementsi. "Color out side the lines

Golfbuddy- It usually takes me about an hour to hour and a half. I do it first thing on a Saturday morning, then take the daily stuff after that. The first time, though, it took almost 3 hours because I was using 1 gram every 15 minutes at first. My body kept soaking it up, and after the first hour and 15 minutes I started on 2 grams instead. I think I soaked up about 28 grams that first time. Organ hungry for it I guess. Subsequent times have required much less. This morning 6 grams were enough to do the trick. 

On Wheldon/Stratton protocol for Cpni in CFSi/FMSi since December 2004.

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

I finally did this, today, and I reached 28 grams myself. (I pulsed Flagyli until last Thursday).

It was pretty easy and I'm going to see about doing this every couple of weeks if I can work that into my schedule. (It just takes about 90 minutes).

I found this thread regarding Vit. C flush.

 

 

On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004

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On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004. Gad-enhanced MRI of brain and spine shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY and one lesion diminishing in size on 9/30. Ma

Good read, thanks Wiggy. 

 

Hubby DX 10-05 by LLMD; positive for Borreliosis; took 200-400 mg Doxyi for 2 mons; followed by zithi daily for 6 wks; small does of flagyli daily for 3 mons; tested by ID for Cpni 6-06;  Tested positive and took Ketek for 6 weeks; Began Capi 8-06

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Hubby DX 10-05 by LLMD; positive for Borreliosis; took 200-400 mg Doxyi for 2 mons; followed by zithi daily for 6 wks; small does of flagyli daily for 3 mons; tested by ID for Cpni 6-06;  Tested positive and took Ketek for 6 weeks; Began Capi protocol

Just bumping this thread up on vit c flush On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004

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On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004. Gad-enhanced MRI of brain and spine shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY and one lesion diminishing in size on 9/30. Ma

I am bumping this up for Lori. I have done this twice and I did feel much better after but you need to do it on a day you will be home. On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004. Gad-enhanced MRI of brain and spine shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY and one lesion diminishing in size on 9/30.

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On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004. Gad-enhanced MRI of brain and spine shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY and one lesion diminishing in size on 9/30. Ma

Survived my first flush.  I had to admit I kept thinking I was doing something wrong.  It took an hour and 1/2 and I had just drank 48 grams when it finally hit.  I think I can say it was the 36 gram dose that pushed me over my limit. (Had just doubled my dose to 12 in each glass)  From rereading all these posts that seems like a HUGE amount.

 I was getting so very nauseas and could barely handle getting the last few drinks down.  Was dizzy, weak in my legs and felt like I needed a nap but I kept at it.

Can't say I feel any better now but hopefully will later today or tomorrow.   

Off for a Sunday nap...still waiting on the benefits of this event.

Lisa Aug 07 -  EBVii/Mycoplasma/CFSi/FM, low NK cells. CAPi 10/3 Amox 500mg 2x/NACi 1200mg.  11/6 NAC/Doxyi 100mg 2x;Azith MWF

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Aug 07 -  EBVii/Mycoplasma/CFSi/FM, low NK cells. CAPi 10/3 Amox 500mg 2x/NACi 1200mg.  11/6 NAC/Doxyi 100mg 2x;Azith MWF

I did not feel better until the next day. On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004. Gad-enhanced MRI of brain and spine shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY and one lesion diminishing in size on 9/30.

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On Wheldon protocol for MSi since April, 2006.  doxyi 200 mgs daily, zithromax 250 mgs 3x/ week , Flagyli Pulses start end Sept., LDNi 2004. Gad-enhanced MRI of brain and spine shows NO NEW DISEASE ACTIVITY and one lesion diminishing in size on 9/30. Ma

That was my experience 1st time or two: needed huge doses (similar to yours) to get to saturation. They say this is indicative of huge tissue need for C as subsequent times tend to require less, especially as you supplement C more regularly. Let us know how you fair. 

CAPi for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFSi & FMSi- Currently: 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, Tinii pulses.

A motto, not an aspiration: "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

Ok all you brilliant people: I am much too tired and weak to deal with all this so please help me. I am heading for a pulse Dec. 20 and I need a little more personal input. I have a really lousy digestive system. Diagnosed with IBSi over 25 years ago but if I stay away from irritants like milk products, spices, coffee and ... massive doses of charcoal, I'm ok. The long-ago prep for the GI series which involves completely emptying your gut practically did me in. And it often takes me 2 months to return to normal after a major goof. So, is this Vit. C flush thing appropriate for a delicate flower like me?

PPMSi-misdiagnosed 5 years-dPPMS-misdiagnosed 5 years-diagnosed last spring. Minocycline 7 mos.- resulting bronchitis 5 months. Talked Hopkins neuroi. into: HRT (estriol and progesterone as neural protectant re Voskuhl,UCLA).Wheldon CAPi 3/2/07 - 200 doxyi; azith MWF. Rockville,Md.

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PPMSi-misdiagnosed 2001-diagnosed 2006. Also maybe csf and Lyme -- who knows?! Minocycline 7 mos.- resulting bronchitis 5 months. Deserted by Hopkins neurology dept. and going to private md. out-of-plan. Wheldon CAPi 3/2/07 - 200 doxyi; azith MWF. 5 pulses.

I know what you mean Nancy, I don't go anywhere near Vit C flushes.   I have a very sensitive GI tract, from heartburn at the top end to gut aches and fluctuations of stool firmness at the other end.   I TRY to manage my symptoms sometimes successfully sometimes not.  

I am careful about how much NACi I take when on the pulse, more than 600mg a day starts the heartburn up.   I take a daily dose of chlorella (between 2 and 4 a day but some people take even more when needed), I find that help the lower end of my gut, I also take Tanalbit, (2 a day) and 2 Saccharomyces B

also as many acidophillus capsules as necessary, you may need to find one that is not milk based if you are particularly sensitive to milk.

This works for me most of the time, but there are times when nothing seems to help.   I am thinking of taking some Betaine hlc with my meals to see if that helps the digestion side of things.   Hope this helps...

 

Michele (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

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Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

 Nancy- as one who has been "flush with success" I would not recommend it for delicate flowers. Let me put it this way, when you've had to do a flush for a colonoscopy does that render your system haywire or actually calm things down? if the latter, then fine. Just make sure you use the buffered powder form. 

One of the remarkable things about doing a Vit C flush for the first few times is that your system soaks up unbelievable amounts of C, for some of us in the 40 gram range, before finally flushing the bowel. This implies that there are organs and tissues quite in need of Vitamin C for redox and the like which just suck it out of the blood stream to fulfill deficit. So this may be worth an experiment just to get your system replete in C, especially if you've found it helps in endotoxini reactions. Otherwise, I'd stay away until the CAPi gets your digestive system into better shape, as some find it does over time. 

CAP for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFSi & FMSi- Currently: 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, Tinii pulses.

A motto, not an aspiration: "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

20 grams did nothing to me. I guess next I'll try 36 grams. Combined Antibiotic Protocol minocycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei for muscle pain, insomnia, interstitial cystitisi, sinus, disphonia, dry eyes, stiff neck, veins, thyroid, TMJ.

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Combined Antibiotic Protocol minocycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei for muscle pain, insomnia, interstitial cystitisi, sinus, disphonia, dry eyes, stiff neck, veins, thyroid, TMJ.