Treatment according the Lege Artis, how is it in your country and why?

Hello to everyone, I'm new here and I'd like to introduce myself shortly. I'm highly positive for chlamydia pneumoniae and mycoplazma pneumoniae for 2 years. My symptoms are: terrible and frequent dry cough attacks, partially paralized on three left hand fingers, frequent inflammationi of the ear canal, dental inflammations, CFSi, for 2 years. Today I just saw another doctor in Prague in hope that someone would help me but returned home pretty disgusted ... I'm disappointed and I'm just wondering ... Wondering why ... Why is this going like this in the 21st century. Why most doctors in this country treat their patients like idiots ... I'm in the mood to stop paying my health insurance because the majority of my doctors are not only able but neither willing to help me. I'll rather pay cash out of pocket to those who help... So, to make the long story short, in the opinion of most doctors I saw all my tests are negative and even though I have heavy symptoms which turn my life into a living hell, I'm healthy and not missing really anything. How is that possible that, when I told to the doctor I suffer a chest pain, he answered to me that chest pain doesn't exist because the bronchi have no nerves, and, on top of it, all my tests went negative ... That I can't suffer cough attacks because my tests are negative ... And so on, and so on ... The doctor said that one single week of taking an ATB is enough in order to kill the chlamydia and the other (the second week) serves just to ensure the treatment. The first sentence he welcomed me into his office was following: "I don't believe in existence in bacterium of chlamydia, in general ... " Can I cry or should I laugh? Why most doctors in this country don't study after getting certified and why don't they keep updated on the regular bases ...? During the so hated old regime it was mandatory for them to keep updated and the doctors were subject to getting tested every few years....Shouldn't I know better if I have any pain or cough than a doctor who sees me for the first time and knows nothing about me ... ??? Thanks God for my negative tests. Negative tests help me like a winter coat to the dead ... I'm so happy I can dance ... Amen. Next time I go somewhere to get checked, I'd like to take with me a tiny camera and record all they say and then make a documentary film about it. I would love to make public this shame of the Czech medicine ... So, I'm just thinking ... If I were the Minister for Health of this country, or someone who is responsible for the decisions like this ... would I just take away the licence from such a doctor or would I put him directly to jail for statements like that. How does it work in your countries? I would like to know ... Do the doctors all over the world look at the chlamydia like in medieval times or are they generally updated enough to know that two weeks of one kind of antibiotic is not enough to kill an intracellulari parasite in which existence they don't even believe? I'm curious about your answers. Thank you in advance and wishing you fast recovery from the bottom of my heart Wink

Hello Snowhite: No, I am afraid that even in the presumably civilised west patients are still largely treated like idiots by many medical doctors.  Another trouble is also, that even those who know that two weeks treatment is not enough to tackle a chronic infection except for something like tuberculosis, risk having their license taken away if they want to treat something correctly.

I can understand that a neurologist knows hardly anything about bacteriology apart from the basics that he learnt in his training days, but he should maybe be willing to learn a bit more when a disease like progressive multiple sclerosisi gets largely better when treated with long term antibioticsi.  Yes, I know that I was the patient and my husband was the bacteriologist, but surely if the neurologist had just had a look at my new MRI scans and looked at my completely better plantar reflexes plus the fact that I was now painting better than ever after he had told my husband life as an artist was in the past.  He should know that I am painting better than ever because I give him a Christmas card every year to rub it in, which I print from a photo of one of my recent paintings.

My GP said that the neuro was a lovely, caring man.  I disagree.  I have recovered and I hope you do as well.....................Sarah

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

I understand.

 

When Sarah was in the grip of secondary progressive MSi we saw a consultant neurologist. He examined her, said that her illness was terminal, that her days as an artist were over. He advised finding a nursing home. Then he demanded a fee of £60. Sarah wrote the cheque in her failing handwriting. While she was doing this, the neurologist said that he was glad that the fee was paid up straight, because he wouldn’t like to get a debt-collecting agency involved.

 

This is true.

 

He never responded when she wrote to him of her improvement.

 

Honestly, this is true. I’ve never said it so explicitly before, but that day gets to me. I was ashamed that such mercenary doctors could exist.

 

Snow-white: I do hope all goes well for you.

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension">i (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Thank you both, Sarah and D W, for your prompt and kind replies. I think the problem is that most medical doctors (probably worldwide) don't experience the CPNi nor MSi nor others complications on their own skin, they literally treat patients based on what they learnt back in school, that Chlamydia or doesn't exist or it's just a very innocent bacteria. I really am not a vengeful person and do not wish anything wrong to anybody, but my suffering makes me think that it would be really cool if some of those doctors who do not believe me and say that I am simulating a disease which doesn't exist because I want to take advantage of disability benefits, I really whish them they could experience how does it feel to live with the CPN for couple of weeks ... They would probably change their minds and their opinions. I do not want any benefits, I just wish to recover, get back on track and work with people like I always did. I'm glad that both of you recovered and wishing you all the best. With thanks

Sincerely yours

Snowhite

Success is journey not destination

Dear Shonwhite,

I am a medical doctor from Czech Republic, although I got my training in Germany and Austria and worked there for 7 years.

I suppose you know the website http://www.chlamydie.info/<. Maybe you are active there under a different nickname? I use the same nickname here and there.

Not only in Czech Republic, but worldwide the doctors are uninformed about chlamydia. It is not taught at schools, it is not taught at training, and the medical authorities (the professors) are denying the problems. Chlamydia is a relatively new bug, rememeber that it was discovered in 1989 (it was known as TWAR before)

I am an M.D., I have chlamydia pneumoniae, I was examined by collegues (alergologists, immunologists, infectious disease specialists). The head of the Department of Infectious Diseasesi told me that my IgGi and IgA antibodies agaist cpni are from a past infection and that cpn does no problems, that it is a "bystander" at best. Fortunately, I can prescribe the antibioticsi to myself so that I can treat myself.

In Czech Republic, you have several options - Dr. Klubal (in Prague), or Dr. Ďurovská (in Bratislava) if you are from Moravia. But with both doctor you need to pay in cash. I would suggest you visit one of these two doctors.

So one problem is that doctors are woefully uninformed about cpn, the other problem is that the doctors are supervised by the health insurance companies (who pay for the treatment) and by antibiotic centers and if they were treating you with long term antibiotics, someone might come and ask them about the treatment. And they could suffer sanctions or even lose the contract with the healthcare insurance company.

You have the same problems with chronic borreliosis which is probably even worse than cpn. Just google about the IDSA vs ILADS conflict

Thank you, Jacck, for your reply. I do sometimes take a look over the chlamydia.info page though I'm not active there as a poster. I just go there for information if I need anything. I noticed you are posting there. Yes, I'm considering visiting Dr. Durovska in Bratislava because I just found out she has better rates on visits and she seems to me to be the appropriate dotor for me, also because of the fact that she had the infection problem and succesfully treated someone in her family (her daugther or son, I'm not pretty sure now). It's also closer to my home because most of my time I live in Moravia. Jacck, I'm really sorry I didn't take with me the little camera yesterday, because I might not be lucky enough to meet such an uninformed medical doctor, pneumologist in Prague. He was not only uninformed, he was literally playing comedy with me. Within half an hour which my visit took, he used contradict of his own words several times in a row, it was something unbelievable I never heard, what he was letting go out of his mouth ... that's a real shame on the Czech medicine ... If you had chance to see that discussion you would laugh loud, I can guarantee ... You know, Jacck, if it comes to an untreatable disease, if they, for example told me, "we are sorry, madam, but we unfortunatelly do not have nor even know the appropriate treatment and medication for you", it would be just fine with me. The thing which disappoints me the most is the fact that these doctors treat me like a really stupid, are arrogant, do not express not even a touch of empathy (and I'm sure they don't even know what that word EMPATHY means), that they want to send me to a psychiatrist and they say my cough attacks and my chronic laryngitis belong to there. No more comment to this. Wishing you, Jacck, a fast recovery and all the best in your life Smile

Success is journey not destination

Unless these long-term antibiotic protocolsi for the treatment of cpni or lyme disease appear in the official guidelines (the "de lege artis medicinae"), not much is going to change. The doctors follow the guidelines. The treatment will stay underground. You need to rely on doctors with personal experience (they themselves were sick, or some family member, which forced them to study the topic).

I would bet that this doctor went through cpn herself

http://web.practicus.eu/sites/cz/Documents/Practicus-2010-04/11-Chlamydi...<

http://web.practicus.eu/sites/cz/Documents/Practicus-2010-09/20-Chlamydi...<

you might want to print it to help convice your doctor.

If you do not want to pay to Klubal or Durovska, you can convince your family doctor, so that he prescribes you the antibioticsi, but not over the health insurance, but so that you yourself pay for the drugs. Its cheap. A box of doxycycline is 80 Czk. You can also give the doctor a written statement that you take all the responsibility of the treatment on yourself and that he informed you about potential risks. Most are reluctant because they have no experience with such long term antibiotic treatments.

Hi and congratulations on finding you way here.

Briefly.  You are Czechoslovakian.   I presume that you are constantly residing in Czechoslovakia?

For the vast majority of folk that are infected with chlamydia pneumoniae or TWARS, it is a sad fact that any medical practitioners that they come across will not know what they are doing when it comes to this particular infection.   There are a tiny few doctors around the world that actually have any degree of understanding on this subject.  That is the facts as they are. That will be as true tomorrow as it will be next week.   That fact is not likely to change.

Luckily for you, you already have a comprehensive understanding all the issues and all that particular bacterium. That is 7/10 of the battle won.   You have joined a website full of other people that share that understanding and willingness the beat the bug.   All you need to do now is obtain the drugs and get them down your gullet.

I am currently on holiday in Spain.   I needed some  more nitromizadole drugs.   My bint walked in a local pharmacy shop and purchased 21 tabs of metronidazolei for the grand sum of €1.80! I presume that doxycycline and azithromycin equally as cheap and easily as obtainable here.   Most people would not have any clue as to what drugs to actually go and buy.   You are a member of a website, a community of people that do know what to buy.   If you can't buy them in Czechoslovakia then jump on the plane and stock up whilst sunning yourself in the Costa Lot.   

G.

“Don't believe everything you read on the internet.”

―    Abraham Lincoln<

Hi, Jacck, talking about the ethics in medicine, I would like to know what exactly does it take to make fit the treatment of the CPNi and other relevant infectionsi with the CAPi into the "de lege artis medicinae" guidelines. Is that more medical research must be done, more clinical trials must go on and more positive statistics of recovered patients must be given to those who decide about the treatment guidelines? What I heard so far is that only small amount of researchers are willing to invest into such trials. Or, am I wrong? What are the researchers afraid of? Do they suspect that long term ABXi treatment might develope the resistence of the bacteria or is there another serious reason? I do not think it's a question of money for such treatments, the ABXi are quite cheap. Since 1989 nothing much moved forward and in my opinion, by today's technology and research level it is a quite long time. Or, do we need to wait until more and more practitioners and researchers of medicine and their family members will get infected and will finally understand and change their strategies? Do we need to wait until more and more people all over the Planet will get infected and suffer and die? What does it take? Is there anything that everyone of us, even an ignorant in medicine like myself, could do on regular daily bases to change this? Thank you for your opinion. Have a nice day.

Success is journey not destination

Hi there, dear Supaguy,

Thank you for your reply. You can really buy the metronidazolei and other needed ABXi in a regular pharpacy in Spain for such low price? I suppose you do need prescription for that, don't you? Good to know. Good luck. Enjoy your holiday. BTW. a friend of mine is in the Costa of Spain now and he's still taking bath in the sea and enjoying the beach. WOW

Success is journey not destination

Snowwhite,

the guidelines are made by some "big shots" in the field, i.e. a bunch of professors at top universities occupying various commitees and societies. These big shots are more politicians than doctors. Czech guidelines are mostly derivative of American guidelines, since the U.S. is a leading country in medical research.

A typical example is the IDSA (Infectious Diseasesi Society of America)

https://www.idsociety.org/IDSA_Practice_Guidelines/<

a bunch of big shot professors with big egos are members of a society and make guidelines based on scientific evidence (evidence-based medicine) and force the guidelines upon everyone else. These guidelines are used to write textbooks and everything else.

And part of the problem with chlamydia is that there is not enough scientific evidence to convince them. The proof of an association is not a proof of causality. Even if you find that people with atherosclerosis, MSi or fibromyalgie are more frequently infected with cpni than healthy controls, it doesnt mean the the bug is causing the diseases. It could be just a cofactor or the result of dysfunctional immunity etc.

so back to your original question. The people responsible for the chlamydia guidelines in Czech Repubic are probably The Czech Society for Infection Diseases (Česká infektologická společnost) - all the prominent Czech infectious diseases professors/doctors are members. It is probably the same in other countries.

Thank you, dear Jacck, for your comment to this and for the info. Yes, that is exactly what I heard ... the problem is not enough evidence. Even the monster doctor I saw yesterday, which originally welcomed me to his office with this words: "I do not believe in chlamydia" told me after 15 minutes of discussion, that chlamydia have 80% of the population in their bodies. The only thing he probably doesn't know is that the CPNi and probably also other kinds of chlamydia behave like just a standby innocent element in 70% of that population (not medical statistics, just my personal guess...) and to the rest of it, to those 10%, the bacteria CPN is causing troubles. I think to get affected by the present CPN bacteria in your body and to get in trouble, in other words, if you're already infected, as those 80% of mentioned population, you need to have your immunei system to be pretty down, and that mostly occures when the bodily IS is down for a long period of time (lets talk in range of years rather than days and months), and the treath of the IS in this case is the mental stress rather than malnourishment of the physical body. That is my personal case because I exactly know when and how my problem started.

So, based on your experience and on your info and opinion we really have to wait till more people will get in trouble with chlamydia and that is highly expected as the mental stress these days is increasing. Sad, really sad ...

Success is journey not destination

One problem with MSi research is that, in the UK at least, it is funded by the makers of alemtuzumab: it is therefore committed to the idea of primary autoimmunityi despite strong evidence of infection with C. pneumoniae. Here’s a link to a page on my website: http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/peer-review.html<   

The other problem is that the organism is very difficult to detect: culture is very difficult — few laboratories in the world can culture it reliably — and serologyi is problematic. The standard Microimmunofluorescence (MIF) test is insensitive and highly subjective (I say this from experience) and the more sensitive Eliza test is rarely carried out. 

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension">i (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

D W, thank you, Sir, for your time and information. Could you please, if it's not of any secret, name at least one lab in the world where they can culture the CPNi organism reliably? And how about the Western Blot method? Is that one more accurate than the Elisa test? Have a nice evening.

Success is journey not destination

Snowhite,

here< is the official guideline of the Czech Society for Infectious Diseasesi. All infectious diseases specialists follow these guidelines, they are educated by these guidelines. Read the last paragraph at the bottom. "there is no evidence that cpni causes any chronic ilness". The doctor you argued with has his information from sources such as this. Most doctors do not read scientific papers, they go to conferences where they listen to the experts and they read some magazines written by the same experts. Only a small minority of doctors who are active in research actually do read research papers.

There is no easy way how to change the situation now. The truth will resurface in the end but it can take decades, till the old experts die out.

Another problem is: look at this< graph. At 40 years of age, 80% of population has positive antibodies against cpn. So the doctors think that it is a common bug and it causes no problems.

And if the doctor you met was really arrogant, there is nothing wrong in wishing him some nasty cpn infection. It would teach him some humility and maybe it would be the best needle for his inflated ego.

Hey Jacck, thank you for all links you provided, I will look them over tonight. BTW. regarding that arrogant doctor I saw yesterday. If he gets nasty CPNi infection, you could not only teach him, you could even then treat his psychogenic cough if his colleagues send him over to you (as to a psychiatrist) after two weeks on Klacid with no effect ... How about that ... LOL ... Have a good night buddy Tongue Out

Success is journey not destination

Hi Snowflake!

Yes, anybody can just walk in off the street into a pharmacy and purchase these medicines without a doctor's prescription.  As Czechoslovakia is part of the Single Market, I can't really see any impediment to you buying what you need (provided that you have the €1.80).

Smile

G

“Don't believe everything you read on the internet.”

―    Abraham Lincoln<

Good morning, Supaguy,

thanks a lot for this information. It's really good news for me. Now I know where to spend my next Holidays. Wishing you a fabulous day and get well and enjoy yourself in Spain Surprised

Success is journey not destination

Trouble is that you can only  buy  reasonable amounts unless of course you go on a road trip and go to lots of different cities!...........Sarah 

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Hey Sarah ...

Silly me. There is no longer any such country as Czechoslovakia.  I don't know whether our new friend Snowflake is in the Czech Republic or whether she is in Slovakia. Either way, Ukraine is nearer. As you know, we have a leading member of this site that lives in Kiev. She can easily obtain any medicines that she needs. I now have a bag full of rifampicin on my kitchen table.

So, in short, I don't believe that folk living in Eastern Europe should find it too difficult.  As you know from a link that I once sent you in a private message, doxycycline is easy enough to obtain even in the UK.  It is those that reside in Scandinavian countries such as Sweden and Norway that will find it really hard.

Anyway, I wish our new friend good luck ... and if she wishes to travel East, she'd be well to do it before the snow flies.

Smile

G.

“Don't believe everything you read on the internet.”

―    Abraham Lincoln<

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