Is there such a thing as "Leaky gut"?

Is there such a thing as "Leaky gut"?

I think there is.  Some may take the view that if you cannot offer up sound scientific proof that it does exist ... then it doesn't exist.

There are many nations and different cultures taking part in this web forum on the treatment of CPni and other ailments too.  There is a phrase in British culture that goes "People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

I am doing CAPi pretty much as laid out on this site.  Clearly I believe in its validity or I wouldn't be doing it.  That fact that I believe in it and that I am convinced is not proof enough for me to go and demand that my GP or my local health board actually provide this treatment to me.  They will say that there is "No proof" or "No evidence" or whatever phrase springs to mind at the time.  Their eyes will roll and they will struggle to wait long enough before laughing.

As I type this, I'm thinking about another British phrase ... something about having your cake and eating it.

I am mindful that the medical establishment will dismiss the whole concept of CAP as loony junk science.  It runs along the lines that "All ideas are bad, unless they're mine (or fellow members of our club)".  As I see it, here we are outside of that establishment.

In common with thousands and thousands of other people trying to stay well, I take LDN.  And where's the "Proof" that it works?  It is way beyond my power to provide the "Proof" that they would require.  The fact that I cannot satisfy their requirements will not mean I stop trying to stay well.

You may have detected a certain scepticism that I hold for The Establishment.  I believe that that scientism is well founded. 

Coming back to the subject of a "Leaky gut"; my history of illness certainly points me in that direction.  I still recall coming away from my GP's surgery back in 2009 with two letters to two hospitals.  I didn't know I had MSi then.  One letter was for and Ear, Nose & Throat consultant and the other was for a different hospital and for a different end of the body.  My doctor believed that the two illnesses were completely unrelated.  I didn't think that they were unrelated then and I don't think that they're unrelated now.

Way back then I started taking all sorts of herbs and suplements.  I recall taking Sea Buckthorn oil ... not for my head but for my gut.  Way back then, probiotics were a godsend ... not for my head either.  And at that time it would not have occoured to me to take antibioticsi.

I believe that there are more than one or two people that have got well and got their lives back by doing CAP.  Where's the proof?  Well I can't imagine that jounals are brimming with CAP success stories.  So should I believe that there are no CAP success stories.  One thing's for sure, when I become one of those cap successes (along with Jam, HG, Froggy and many more beside) you'll not read my name in any of those journals; you will not see a picture of a man with his underpants worn over the top of his tights and a bidi "S" on his T shirt plastered over the front cover of The Lancet.  Just like Sarah, they'll say you never had MS in the first place!

Anyway, we have a new thread here and lots of latitude.

G.

 

Oh Gee missed your post and put up another. WHoops - feel free to take mine down!

L

Hey Linda ...

There's a lady from Chicago that has amazing powers (not just a pretty face) ... I'm sure she'll sort it out for us.

                                                Smile

G.

“Don't believe everything you read on the internet.”

―    Abraham Lincoln<

OK good becuase I don't know how to take it downWink

Leaky Gut Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intestinal_permeability<

I recall reading somewhere on this forum, and perhaps somewhere else too, that cpni itself can infect the stomach / gut, and could perhaps be a cause of "leaky gut" as it likes to live in tissue like the stomach.  I don't know if there is such a thing as a "leaky" gut, but it seems possible that cpn could be one potential cause of it.

In celiacs' disease, gluten causes destruction of the villi, and one of the tests for celiacs is a stomach biopsy.

I know I react to gluten, reliably and repeatedly, as does Rick.  Could it be a "leaky gut" that allows the gluten to get into our bloodstreams and cause some sort of autoimmune reaction, or does it get in everyone's bloodstream, but some don't react? 

If the answer is the first, e.g. somehow Rick & I have a "leaky gut" that let's gluten in where it doesn't get let in for others, that would seem to support the idea of a leaky gut.  Gluten could cause a leaky gut given it damages the villi...

Best & Highest Regards,

Tom C

 

Proud Parent of Rick - R started CAPi in Nov. 13. Small measurable improvements as of 7/14, more by 10/14.  Holding Steady in early 2017.  "I will leave no stone unturned, no theory unexamined, to help my son." Tommi

I copy a link to a webpage below... it's another talk show so this could be another one of those doctors "Spouting off" but he seems to be a respected doctor to some anyhow..

Its Dr. Alessio Fasano.. He founded the University of Maryland Center for Celiac Research..

 

Now this interview mainly talks about celiac disease but goes into "leaky gut" and what he discovered about this!

 

I am not for a minute saying that the soul cause to M.S and other autoimmunityi diseasesi are from a leaky gut but it is one factor that could be marked by the progression of these diseases and how bad you develop!

 

I believe that coupled with this "leaky gut" CPni / Lymes / Herpes etc play a more important role in the development of these autoimmune diseases but I feel when our bodies become like the "Perfect Storm" when all elements are present then we get sick!

I believe a leakly gut also plays a part in starving our bodies of minerals and vitaminsi required to help us recover and this aids the pathogens present to multiply and invide our cells.

 

link to website:

http://chriskresser.com/pioneering-researcher-alessio-fasano-m-d-on-glut...<

 

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

Hi ....

Researchers at Lund University in Sweden published a study into this "leaky Gut" issue and Dr. Terri Wahls also seems to support their findings!

link to website below....

 

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-gut-implicated-in-multiple-s...<

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

Leaky gut can be diagnosed with a food sensitivity test which I have had - never mind the $$ all the time. Most peeps with CPNi and such weird bacteria have this.

Probiotics and bone broth seem to be the most helpful as well as steamed veg instead of raw. And then possibly gluten is a prob, so no bread...not that thrilling but hey Wink

I haven't got a leaky gut.........Sarah 

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Now that's the sort of thing I meant when I expressed interest in seeing a serious argument.  Thanks.

Lucky!

Did you have a test for leaky gut Sarah... Where did you have it as some places aren't reliable with their testing methods and results!

Maybe then, if you hadn't leaky gut that is why you responded so well to the antibioticsi and recovered so well and still doing so!

as I said I suspect leaky gut as a marker to how well, how fast you recover and also how sick you get and at what pace you progress at!

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

Hey …

There’s probably a qualitative and real difference between gluten sensitivity and intolerance – which is one thing – and actual permeability of the gut wall in certain places, which is quite another.  I have had the cameras and the barium X-Rays and all that paraphernalia.  I was able to see the diverticular of this diverticular disease.  That this situation causes infection and unregulated permeability beyond the intestinal wall is not beyond my imagination.

That others members of our community have not suffered this and have not be thus afflicted is not evidence or proof or disproof of anything.  If someone’s gut wall is in a good and healthy condition, then that is a reflection of their general good health … naturally, the opposite is so too.

It isn’t the case that it’s being argued here that CPni is not the cause of asthmai, arthritis, MSi and all sorts.  What is being suggested, I think, is that things like “Leaky gut” play there part in the downfall of the victims of these illnesses.

Undecided

G.

 

“Don't believe everything you read on the internet.”

―    Abraham Lincoln<

No Darren I never had a test but I never had any symptoms. My gut has always been fine and I can eat anything I like apart from bananas.........Sarah 

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

Well you are missing nothing from not been able to eat bananas (-:

 

ya.... With leaky gut you dont have to have the symptoms relating to your gut par-say to have a leaky gut, I had no symptoms of having a leaky gut but when tested I had a big big issue with the gut!

just like CPni with. Leaky gut it allows an attack on your weekess link in body! Brain / spinal cord / muscles or your heart!

So I believe without having a proper test on the gut to determine its health saying you haven't a leaky gut might not be giving the patient their full health issue they face while having CPn and or Lymes ..

 

Now in saying this, your remarkable recovery is a testimony to the protocol DW developed and the fact that you never addressed or needed to address your gut does point to  the fact that you said that you don't have a leaky gut! But I do believe that there is different levels of ill health and maybe just maybe  a leaky gut is another layer of illness people could suffer from and maybe in my opinion addressing what could be a gut health issue working alongside antibioticsi protocol would speed up recovery for some.

 

what is sometimes suggested on here even without the confirmation of having a CPn infection one should start treating themselves for a CPn infection so having no confirmation of having a leaky gut maybe a plan to treating a leaky gut could be followed by people starting the antibiotic protocol also. Healing a leaky gut isn't hard and troublesome...  I know the lifestyle change someone has to undertake starting an antibiotic protocol is a huge and difficult change and can overwhelm someone but personal choices to alter ones diet is a personal choice! All I am doing is suggesting what has so far worked for me....

Dr Terri Walhs  in her approach to treating her MS with the protocol she developed I believe she may have accidentally treated naturally her CPn infection by the supplementsi / diet and addressing her gut intestinal issues!

Just a thought ...

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

Nevermind. I misunderstood.

Inflammatory Bowel Diseasei is a major cause of translocation of gut bacteria and compounds which are not usually absorbed. Crohn’s Disease has been associated with MRI changes in the brain typical of MSi. (A pub med search will help.) So it seems that chronic infection with C. pneumoniae may cause vasculitic phenomena widespread over many systems.

 

Some ten years ago I saw a woman in her thirties who had had a total colectomy for Crohn’s. She had no specific symptoms of MS but she had widespread white-matter changes typical of MS. She also had that strange mental state typical of those with aggressive MS: [ http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/personality-change.html< ]. Finally, she had grossly raised IgAi antibodies to C. pneumoniae. I think that evidence is accumulating that many chronic disease entities are interlinked. The trouble is that the division of medical specialties prevents a view of the overall picture. The woman above clearly had had Crohn’s and a forme fruste of MS. Her neurologist advised her against treatment for a chronic C. pneumoniae infection. (He can’t think out of the box. Perhaps one day they will screw the lid on.)

D W - [Myalgia and hypertension">i (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

Re DW's post starting "Inflammatory Bowel Diseasei ... "

I have just been asked why I am clapping at my computer monitor.  That so much wisdom & common sense can come from so few words is truly amazing.

I will re-read those words again when I have stopped clapping.

                                                 Smile

G.

“Don't believe everything you read on the internet.”

―    Abraham Lincoln<

That makes perfect sense to me DW.... And as for hoping that certain doctors would think outside the box... Well I do hope but maybe not in my lifetime perhaps !

could you theorisis why Terri Walhs had success in her treatment without her directly treating Cpni with antibioticsi... I speculated my opinion above but hea, I could be far off the mark!

 

another though of mind was that her gut "leaky" was a bigger issue and a secondary issue was CPn... It's like which came first the chicken or the egg!

so I relate back to my thought and opinion on a two prong attack on CPn / lymes...

role one and the primary role is to kill the pathogens...

role two... Heal / repair the gut with dietary changes.

 

all I want is to put this jigsaw puzzle together (-:

 

thoughs are very welcome on this please...

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

Briefly ...

I am very glad indeed that we are having this discussion.  The thread is headed "Is there such a thing as leaky gut?"  Whilst there are clearly some members that do believe that there is and some that do not, it appears to me that there may be some disagreement about what is meant by the term "Leaky gut".

Back in my school days, I recall learning about semi-permeable membranes as well as selectively permeable membranes.  I believe that the gluten thingy is all about the gut wall allowing molecular chains of a certain length pass through  ... when in fact they shouldn't.

The stuff that I am alluding to is not about that at all.  What I am referring to is the possibility that someone's gut wall is so unhealthy and damaged that is becomes permeable to undigested food, gut bacteria and all sorts.  Not selectively permeable; not semi-permeable ... but permeable.

The situation that I have describes above is not one that I'd wish on anyone.  On this site, I think that it's everyone's desire to see everybody else get well.

I'm gonna dangle my leg muscles in the pool ... but I'll add more to this later.

G.

 

“Don't believe everything you read on the internet.”

―    Abraham Lincoln<

She isn't a success. When she goes off the diet, she progresses....therefore she is not cured. 

Got something wrong here, but as far as Terry Wahls goes and the progressing going on is she stops the diet, that to my mind is not a cure: I wouldn't say I was cured if I had to take these antibioticsi for the rest of my life..................Sarah

Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.

I think she is managing SYMPTOMS with diet, as opposed to addressing the cause of her disease.  It would be nice to do both. Cool

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

What test did you have?  (One of the points in that interview with Dr. Fasano that you linked to was that good tests for this are not easy to find.)

I asked her about that Jen and it's not as its been published. 

at the same time her recovery is fairly remarkable with only a dietary and supplement change and no antibioticsi... You have to admit that surly..

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

Agree with you to a point... But my question is what made her recovery so remarkable without antibioticsi

Recovery was huge in her case and it wasn't managing her symptoms. If that was the case she would only have stopped progressing and not healing!

 There is another guy in Ireland that had the same recovery I met last year Following a diet supplement protocol...

 

so I was asking without antibiotics how come she made the recovery she made... And my opinion was that like an onion there could be multiple layers of illness and it's what layer that affects you the most or is driving the disease the most and I beliebe in some cases addressing the gut along with the pathogen can be more beneficial than just addressing the pathogen on its own!

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

It's always quite hard to know what the explanation for any one case is.  If her studies pan out, then we'll have more to chew on.

Jen... You said that Terri Walhs recovery isn't a success ...

tom c posted a few weeks back that his son rick's progression seems to have halted. I would consider that a HUGE HUGE SUCCESS and you say hers  isn't ???? Why do you have that opinion. I would love to see you to your full health and I would be over the moon about it no matter how you do it.. I am really and truly baffled by what I think is a very very negative statement about something good!

 

look I am not forcing anything down anyone's mouth and I certainly ain't trying to tell anyone not to take antibioticsi... What I am simply doing is trying to find answers...

 

will i I ever consider myself cured? Nope, but when I return to my full health, and I will (-: I will continue to take a healthy diet and a few supplementsi like NACi OLE etc.... Is that a form of managing l... Sure is... As I believe if I got another CPni infection and I wasn't managing my situation I could end up back at square one. I do believe that just getting Cpn doesn't give you ms... You need to be genetically disposed to reacting in a certain manner to that pathogen. Some people get ms some get heart issues etc etc.... So really arent we all managing our symptoms.

i wouldnt use the word cured as I wouldn't be brave enough. But I would be dam glad to feel 100% normal again.

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

XO

Sorry Norman ... I forgot to answer your question!

i got a few tests done. The usual bloodwork but done at a private lab. Then.. The tests you were wondering about!.

the first round was done in March 2005 for intestinal permeability by a company in the uk called Diagnostic Services limited. A few years later I was researching something else and came across some reviews about this lab and some people questioned its testing technology, so me been me repeated the test but this time at R.E.D labs in europe. The results were nearly the same from both labs!

fortunally I have some great contacts and friends in the medical field that helped me with this test and other stuff I needed done.. In Ireland its who you know or how much money you have when you need things done!

 

along with that I got a tissue mineral analysis done also in the U.S. .... Which helped in putting another piece of the picture togethe For me! My journey continues (-:

The Greatest Risk of all is Not taking the Risk...

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