Stopping inflammation while raising vitamin D levels

Many discussions of late have talked about vitamin Di as well as increasing vitamin D levels.  In addition, many discussions lately also have talked about inflammationi and how to reduce it.  The problem is that those two objectives may have obstacles that counter the other.  My question and the discussion I want to have is how can we do that?

I have previously thought that I could take NSAIDsi to circumvent the problem but now read that the  NSAID that I've been using, Naproxen Sodium, is in fact both a COX-1 and COX-2 inhibitor.  Not good.  That impairs my bodie's ability to absorb vitamin D and covert it to the active hormone form.  I want to avoid that.  But again, I also want to reduce inflammation at the same time.  How can this be done?  Ideas?  My thoughts about an approach to it are sadly lacking.

John,

There is nothing I can contribute to this discussion, since I have taken only two Aleve pills (Naprosyn, I believe) in the last 10 years. 

My contribution which may be useful is that three months ago my Vit D level was 49.6 and yesterday was 70, by the same doctor and same lab.  I have been taking about 4000 iu until three months ago, when I learned the results of 49.6, and increased my intake to 8000, aiming for +/- 75. I am close to my target, so will cut back to a daily 4000.   Somewhere I picked up a "comfort zone" of 75-100.  My doctor has been testin many of his patients of late (!), finding levels of 4, 5, 10 ...These are in "women on calcium with D ", people in the Carolinas, and people who are "out in the sun a lot".

3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abxi protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amox 1000, Doxyi 200, MWF Azith 250, flagyli 1000 daily. Began Sept 04 PPMSi EDSSi 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1 Mind, like parachute, work only when open. Charlie Chan  In for the duration.&am

I bet it would help if we just separated them between morning pills and evening ones?

Thoughts?  Ken

In pursuit of ABX<

Don't Allow What You Know To Get In The Way Of What Might Be

Rica            

It's a contribution to say that you haven't really used NSAIDsi much.  I was on curcumin and stopped it thinking I could replace it with an NSAID but that appears to be  counter to the idea of raising vitamin Di levels at the same time.  There is ample documentation of how NSAIDs interfere with vitamin D due to their status as COX inhibitors.

The only thing I've come across that _might_ work without being a COX inhibitor are Omega 3 acids or Fish Oil.  It's hard to say why they might work though.  I'm not well versed in the science about it only that it has been mentioned in the past in documents I've read on the subject.

Needless to say, I have to stop the NSAID (naproxen sodium) and now have nothing to reduce inflammationi.  Not good.  There has to be something that we can use or some strategy for taking inflammation reducing agents while permitting vitamin D levels to go up and stay in the healthy range.  Finding out what those are is why I started this thread.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Ken

I would love it if it were that simple; however, I don't believe it is.  Once you have COX and/or 5-LOX inhibitors in the bloodstream, they're in the bloodstream for a while.  I don 't know the half lives of the various herbs or drugs but I really doubt they would be removed from the bloodstream quickly enough.  Plus, if they weren't in the bloodstream, inflammationi would reign, or so I believe.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Hi Rica,

This is great news!  Glad to hear your Vit D levels are getting up there.   Also very interesting (and scary) about your doc's other patients...

 

 

Hi John,

I've read and posted a lot on Vit D3 and 5-LOX inhibitors, but I haven't read anything on interactions between COX inhibitors and Vitamin Di.   Can you post a link to a study on this?  Thanks...

Treatment for Rosaceai<

  • CAPi:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NACi:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-
Maybe I'm asking the wrong question.  Maybe the question should be should we be concerned about vitamin Di levels while trying to fight inflammationi.  Or the reverse of the - should we be worried about inflammation while trying to raise vitamin D levels?  Sounds ridiculous to me but then again, wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Hi John,

While I'm certainly no expert, I'd personally stay away from the 5-LOX inhibitors given what I've managed to dig up on their potential to increase pathogen burdens, but I'd say if you need to use an NSAID like Naproxen or Ibuprofen (COX-1 and COX-2 inhibitorsi) to counter the inflammationi right now in order to function, do it.  Once you are better, you can always stop the NSAIDsi...

Hang in there...

Treatment for Rosaceai<

  • CAPi:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NACi:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-

Hi Red         

Thanks for the comment but it leaves the question out there of increasing vitamin Di levels at the same time?  If we're wanting to lower pathogen burdens, should we not be doing that also?  And if we do that, doesn't using an NSAID or an herbal COX\5-LOX inhibitor counter that effort?  My limited knowledge indicates that it does.

So, where are we left?  What is the best course of action?  Are we pissing into the wind either way we go?

A couple of things that I think might give us a way to formulate a plan of action.  First, knowing the half lives of either the anti-inflammatory herbs or the NSAIDSi.  That's key to me and I haven't been able to come up with anything on it thus far.  Second, the inpact on vitamin D absorbtion that various COX-1, COX-2, and 5-LOX inhibitors have.  Maybe simply increasing intake of vitamin D  offsets the reduced absorbtion??

So two possible strategies that have come to mind, neither of which I have any idea of the value of trying.

  1. Take the inhibitor that has the shortest half life at a time where it is less likely to impact vitamin D...or alternate days on vitamin D intake so that one day you take it, the next day you take the inflammationi inhibitor
  2. Take an increased amount of vitamin D to offset the impact of the inflammation  inhibitor and take vitamin D every day.

I have no idea if either of those strategies work but those are the two which come to mind.  I'm sure there are more but those are all I can think of at the moment.  Any help anyone can give in determining which way to go is the better way or what the better way is, is greatly appreciated.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Information on NSAID half lives...

The information I have found is sketchy in my opinion, not as reliable as more scientific information.  But still, it's information to start from.

My understanding of the half lives of NSAIDSi is that they remain in blood plasma a shorter time then in humna tissues.  To me this poses a problem with vitamin Di.  Here is some information I've found and where I got it from.

From http://arthritis.about.com/cs/nsaids/a/factsofnsaids.htm< I found...

  • Pain< and inflammation< sometimes occur in a circadian rhythm (daily rhythmic cycle based on a 24 hour interval). Therefore NSAIDs may be more effective at certain times.
  • NSAIDs can be divided into two groups: those with plasma (blood) half-lives less than 6 hours (i.e. aspirin, diclofenac, ibuprofen) and those with half-lives greater than 10 hours (i.e. diflunisal, piroxicam, and sulindac). Since it takes three to five half-lives to stabilize blood levels, NSAIDs with longer half-lives require a loading dose to be given (large dose given initially). The "half-life" is the time it takes a drug to go down to half of its initial level.
  • Prostaglandins, which are inhibited by NSAIDs, function in the body to protect the stomach lining, promote clotting of the blood, regulate salt and fluid balance, and maintain blood flow to the kidneys when kidney function is reduced. By decreasing prostaglandins, NSAIDs can cause stomach irritation, bleeding, fluid retention, and decreased kidney function.
  • Synovial fluid (joint fluid) concentrations are 60% of plasma concentrations regardless of type of NSAID or its half-life. Synovial fluid is mostly the site of action of NSAIDs.
  • NSAIDs are 95% albumin (protein) bound. The unbound fraction of the NSAID is increased in patients with low albumin concentrations such as in active rheumatoid arthritis< and the elderly.

From http://www.medicineau.net.au/clinical/palliative/NSAIDS.html< I found...

Drug Half-life (hr)

Short half-life

  • Aspirin 0.25 0.03
  • Diclofenac 1.1 0.2
  • Flufenamic acid 1.4;9.0
  • Ibuprofen 2.1 0.3
  • Indomethacin 4.6 0.7
  • Ketoprofen 1.8 0.4
  • Tiaprofenic acid 3.0 0.2

Long half-life

  • Diflunisal 13 2
  • Naproxen 14 2
  • Phenylbutazone 68 25
  • Piroxicam 57 22
  • Salicylate 2 - 15
  • Suldinac (sulfide) 14 8
  • Tenoxicam 60 11

This information is good but only addresses blood plasma half life and not tissue half life.  So, it's only partially there.  I've been trying to find the tissue half life but my guess is that it isn't out there.  How does a researcher known how long a drug remains in the brain/spine or heart/lungs?  I haven't a clue how that works.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

The search continues and I found another site with more information about NSAIDSi...

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/kem070v1#F1<

Here is an interesting diagram from one of their figures

I can't claim to completely understand what the diagram or arcticle is talking about but it does seem relevant, so I included it here.  From the review of the information above, it would seem that the half life of most of the NSAIDS is less then 10 hours.  If that is correct, how does that impact the tissue concentration?

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

I found a good paper that describes some of the more common herbal COX inhibitors and the difference between COX-1, COX-2, AND 5-LOX.  According to what the author writes, two things stand out to me from the paper.

The first is that inflammationi is a function of the COX-2 enzyme, not COX-1.  The second thing is that BROMELAIN apparently isn't a COX inhibitor as I thought I read else where.  I'll be looking for a counter statement elsewhere after I post this.  Either way, this is an interesting paper:

http://www.hchs.edu/files/HerbalCox_2_HSR.pdf<

 

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

I did find several counter statements so I have no idea what's true...

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf052390k<

http://www.abouthormones.org/bromelain<

...for example.  There are plenty of others but these are two.

 

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

I came across this study that seems to indicate that a specific COX-2 inhibitor works in conjunction with vitamin D rather then prevent absorbtion.  All very confusing and I have been having difficulty getting the issue clarified in a concise way.

The study was in reference to a prostatei cancer treatment...

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA472121<

 

The incidence of prostate cancer has increased and effort is needed towards understanding mechanisms involved in development/progression of prostate cancer and developing new strategies for prevention/treatment. Studies suggested nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, such as COX-2 inhibitor, act as chemopreventative agents and found COX-2 expression in prostate cancer correlated with cancer progression. Treatment of prostate cancer cells with COX-2 inhibitor, NS-398, induces VDR expression, and might increase vitamin D sensitivity. Treatment of prostate cancer cells with 1,25-VD results in reduced COX- 2 expression. Based on the bi-directional regulation of vitamin D and COX-2 inhibitor, we hypothesize that combining vitamin D and COX-2 inhibitor in treatment of prostate cancer will be beneficial. Over the past year, we identified the molecular mechanism by which vitamin D inhibits prostate cancer angiogenesis through IL-8, finding a strong correlation of IL-8 expression with prostate cancer disease progression, therefore, inhibition of IL-8 by vitamin D supports the chemotherapeutic effects of vitamin D in preventing prostate cancer progression.....

 

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

This study has found that a form of vitamin D3 acts as a potent anti-inflammatory agent

Résumé / Abstract

Inducible cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) has been implicated to play a role in inflammationi and carcinogenesis and selective COX-2 inhibitorsi have been considered as anti-inflammatory and cancer chemopreventive agents. 1α,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 (1α,25(OH)2D3), the active hormonal form of vitamin D3 also has been considered to be a cancer chemopreventive agent in addition to its important role in maintaining calcium homeostasis. Based on these observations, we studied the direct effect of 1α,25(OH)2D3 and one of its less calcemic synthetic analogs, 1 α,25(OH)2-1 6-ene-23-yne-D3 on the activity of both COX-1 and COX-2 in an in vitro enzyme assay. Preliminary data indicated that both 1α,25(OH)2D3 and 1α,25(OH)2-16-ene-23-yne-D3 inhibited selectively the activity of COX-2 with no effect on the activity of COX-1. Out of the two compounds, 1α,25(OH)2-16-ene-23-yne-D3 was found to be more effective with an IC50 of 5.8 nM. Therefore, the rest of the experiments were performed using 1α,25(OH)2-16-ene-23-yne-D3 only. 1α,25(OH)2-16-ene-23-yne-D3 inhibited the proliferation of lipopolysaccharidei (LPSi) stimulated mouse macrophage cells (RAW 264.7) with a reduction in the expression of COX-2 along with other inflammatory mediators like inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) and interleukin-2 (IL-2). Furthermore, 1α,25(OH)2-16-ene-23-yne-D3 also inhibited carrageenan induced inflammation in an air pouch of a rat and effectively reduced the expression of COX-2, iNOS, and IL-2 in the tissues of the same air pouch. In both cases, 1α,25(OH)2-16-ene-23-yne-D3 did not show any effect on the expression of COX-1. In summary, our results indicate that 1 α,25(OH)2-16-ene-23-yne-D3, a less calcemic vitamin D analog, exhibits potent anti-inflammatory effects and is a selective COX-2 inhibitor.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20518002<

 

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Wow, John great detective work. The last one seems to indicate that vitamin di is pretty effective as a cox 2 and the authors are not really saying as they often do that more studies are needed. They seem pretty sure of themselves! Vitamin d has been known for a long time to be antiinflammatory; Interesting that the mechanism is the cox 2 pathway. I take both an nsaid and vitamin d personally. Thanks for this good work marie

On CAPi since Sept '05 for MSi, RAi, Asthmai, sciatica. EDSSi at start 5.5.(early cane) Now 6 (cane full time) Originally on: Doxyi 200, Azith 3x week, Tinii cont. over summer '07, Revamp of protocol in Summer '08 by Stratton due to functional loss; clarithro

Just a footnote about the diagram above.  The column Tmax is the time to maximum plasma levels and T1/2 is the half life time.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Thanks Marie.  I'm not sure I deserve the praise as it's not very definitive information in my opinion, but it's the best I could find so far. 

I still have a couple of loose ends I haven't tracked down yet.  The first is determining if and how much vitamin D absorbtion is affected by any NSAID or 5-LOX inhibitor.  The second is to settle on a strategy based on information that is trustworthy and complete.  There may be more but those two are what readily comes to mind.  So, the search continues.

Actually, there is a third thing and that is to enumerate the various herbs that fit into the aforementioned categories, and show what their half life is, and how much they impact vitamin D.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

John,

Wow!  I had no idea this was such a key issue, but I agree that it's important.  I'm not clear as to whether there is a recommendation that's come out of this.  How much vitamin Di have you been taking?  Kim's taking 6000 D3 daily.  I get the impression that Ibuprophen has a shorter half life, would this be preferable to use?

Ken

In pursuit of ABX<

Don't Allow What You Know To Get In The Way Of What Might Be

Ken           

No, there's no clear-cut recommendation about taking herbal COX or 5-LOX inhibitors at the same time as taking vitamin Di.  However, a few things we've figured out.

First, there are two or three COX inhibitor pathways.  COX-1, COX-2, and recently COX-3 was discovered.  From what I've read, my understanding is that it is the COX-2 pathway that is chiefly responsible for inflammatory responses/inflammationi.  I suspect 5-LOX as well but know less about that and have only a little bit to go on with it, as well as research that Red has done and reported on this site about how one's immunei system is impaired by 5-LOX.   I may not be quoting him correctly so maybe you can look for some of his threads and/or he'll chime in here to correct me.

I have been taking 4000 IU of vitamin D continuously for about 3 years, and before that about 3000 IU for 5 years.  I just recently started taking 6000 IU and am at that level now.

Ibuprofen does have a shorter half life; however, I would not necessarily make a recommendation cart blanche about taking one NSAID versus the next.  The half life is just one thing to consider.  What COX pathways that inhibit is the other.  Finally, knowing how much they inhibit/impair vitamin D absorbtion is the last thing I would consider.  I don't have an answer for the last question and haven't been able to find anything on it.  I'm still looking but it may be that the information is not available where I will find it.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Okay, I'm posting this to bump this topic up since it's relevant to the vitamin Di discussion we have been having here for some time. Given that inflammationi is part of the CPni story, as are low vitamin D levels, I think talking about this and putting together some ideas about an approach or strategy is needed.

In the intervening 2 months since I was a frequent poster here, I have made no progress on this front with respect to coming up with a strategy.  My only choice has been to put vitamin D at the highest priority and deal with the inflammation by just accepting it.  Not an ideal approach, but without some real strategy, I have no other options that come to mind but one is definitely needed.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

John, how much VitD3 have your worked your dosage up to at this point?  When did you start increasing?  How long were you on it prior to that attempt to increase it and for how long at that dosage?  I ask to get a picture of what you have done.  You may have said it all before but if you want to start the discussion again I would find a recap helpful.

I have been taking vitaminsi for the better part of 35 years, and intermittent multivits prior to that time.  During my first pregnancy I had foot  cramps, my OBdoctor told me to chew some Maalox tablets when I complained.   I asked myself what is in that OTC antacid that would be helpful.  Magnesium.  I began to read the work of Adele Davis way back then in the 70's and I was hooked on nutrition to support my state of being.  The magnesium has always been my mainstay if I went longer than 3 weeks almost to the day without it I would be back there again with middle of the night foot cramps.  I have been taking handfuls of supplementsi for the better part of 30+ years.  I still got infected, was likely so for many, many years.  VitD was stressed by good old Adele so I have always supplemented in the 400 - 800 IU level.  Never was tested until May 07 and although my reading was just above the low normal line, it was a Quest lab test which has since been implicated in false readings, so I was likely below range even on the multi that I was taking.

I start to take a bone health combination supplement which had 3000IU and calcium and more.  I took it intermittently during the first 6 months of CAP due to massive nausea secondary to doxyi.  At 6 mos I was insufficient still and advised to take 6000IU which I did for 4 months and still I was insufficient on testing.  In the fall retested once again insufficient level.  This is when I went up to 10,000, I was just tested early January and the results now a level of 68 more acceptable range but my MD wants me to get my test up to 100.  I will likely continue on 10,000 and retest again in April or May and see what the level is once again.   I think that frequent testing, at least quarterly until you find your optimal dosage is a good idea.  You can self test.   I may go that way eventually as I will want to follow myself over time as I want to keep within the upper limits of the current acceptable levels.   You need to titrate your dosage to your particular situation.  Some get lots of sun and make their own Vit D3 even then you need to shower less I understand so it actually stays on your skin and is absorbed.    I live in a locality where lots of skin exposure year round is quite limited.  And with cousins with hx of MSi and Lupus I have stayed out of the sun for extended period for years.  Then there were all those years that I worked indoors and once again had limited time in the sun.  Getting D from sun exposure is just not practical as a way to sustain VitD for myself. 

I hope there are a few more posts for you with suggestions.  I am not fighting spasticity and I did not really have an idea for any untoward die off effect when I initially ramped up so if it caused me any troubles I did not know enough to atribute them to VitD3!

Louise

  • CAPi(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFSi<
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDNi 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support
  • <

Hi Louise      

I was at 4000 IU for something like 6 or 7 years and just recently increased to 6000 IU since November.  I got on the D3 bandwagon quite a while ago though my levels could be higher and I'm working on that.  I was on most of the supplementsi that a recommended adjuncts to the CAPi since 2001.  When I was diagnosed with MSi, my first step was to ignore my neurologist because I was seeing a reaction from the food I was eating (porphyriai).  That lead me to the MS Direct group and the BBD, along with their recommended supplementsi at the time.  It did significantly improve my symptoms but I never got back to where it all started, but it did stabilize to where it was up until I started the CAP some almost 3 years ago now.  It stay stabilized but there have been super subtle improvements.  Tiny little things that cumalitively are bigger but still not big.  Like I said in another post...nibble nibble nibble.

I do believe that the increase in my D intake recently had somewhat worsened my condition; however, I believe that's just a temporary situation, likely to remit over time as I aclimate to higher D levels.

I had my D levels checked in August or September.  They were in the high 40s, which was lower then I expected.  So, I'm working on increasing the levels and will be tested again in March.  I wanted to get tested sooner but my doctor wanted to give the higher level intake time to increase the levels before testing.

In any case, none of that has any bearing on the topic of this thread directly.  The topic of this thread is how to plan the intake of inflammationi reducing agents such as NSAIDsi which also negatively impact vitamin Di while simultaneously increasing vitamin D levels.  Not an easy task to work out.  The only idea that I or someone else here came up with was Ibuprofen because of it's shorter half life.  I don't know if a shorter half life is going to be enough and this may just be a case where the science isn't there to work out this problem.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

My question about your Vit D was because I did not know if you were just now increasing with this new wave of VitD info.  Sound like you have taken a substantial amount over a good long period of time.  For me finally stepping up to 10,000 is what was needed to bring me to the mid range, below the target level of my provider.    Guess you will find out in March what you have from the dose that you have been taking these past months.   Then your dose can be adjusted again if needed.  Guess I don't have any other suggestions for inflamation to share.  Louise 

  • CAPi(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFSi<
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDNi 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support
  • <

Hi John,

In addition to the supplementsi of CAPi for inflammationi, I use ibuprofen and Traumeel< drops.  I've also taken another Heel remedy called Lymphomyosot< for symptoms of that flu like feeling which were both recommended to me by a naturopath physician as well as an MD that uses it for his patients for die off symptom relief during antibiotic treatment.  

Thanks for reminding me of these!  I just began using Traumeel again lately which may be why I'm feeling better.  Smile

NACi 2.4g, Zithi 250mg/MWF, minoi 200mg, Tinii 5day/1g/5 pulses, Valcyte
Supplementsi, CFIDSi/FMSi, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBSi, Sec Addisons

Don't believe everything you think!  

Hi Reenie

It's good to hear that those are working for you.  I followed the links you provided and also went out to Wikipedia.  I didn't find much about their exact mechanism of action although I may have missed it.  It does appear from one of the diagrams I saw that it's not a COX inhibitor.  That may or may not be right, it may in fact be one, either Traumeel or Lymphomyosot.  Or they may be taking a different approach.  The question I have about it is what do they do and how might they impact vitamin Di asorbtion, if at all?

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

Traumeel is a homeopathic combination remedy.
  • CAPi(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFSi<
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDNi 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support
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John,

Neither one of these remedies are supposed to affect Vit D.  In fact, the MD using them has many patients on the MPi, although the MP suggests not to use much of anything that is alternative but this Dr does use them (with a few supplementsi as well) for his patients.  

Traumeel is one of the only homeopathic medications I'm aware of that has actually been studied like a drug with clinical trials.  I think you have to understand how homeopathy works to understand how or why it helps.  

HERE<'s some info on trials. 

And... you can read the rest of the statement from below, HERE <

As with many pharmaceuticals including the conventional NSAIDsi, the exact mechanism of action of TRAUMEEL® is not fully understood. However, it appears to be the result of modulation of the release of oxygen radicals from activated neutrophils, and inhibition of the release of inflammatory mediators (possibly interleukin 1 from activated macrophages) and neuropeptides.

And... be sure to click on the link for PDR reference in the above link too.  Wink

NACi 2.4g, Zithi 250mg/MWF, minoi 200mg, Tinii 5day/1g/5 pulses, Valcyte
Supplementsi, CFIDSi/FMSi, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBSi, Sec Addisons

Don't believe everything you think!  

Reenie and Louis     

I understand that Traumeel is a homeopathic remedy; however, the assertion that it's not supposed to affect vitamin Di absorbtion gives me little confidence that it doesn't.  I can't read the PDR right now and will take a look this evening and see what it says.

The one thing that stands out is the comparison to NSAIDSi.  It may be more effective but have a similar mode of action, although they do say another mode that may be unrelated to the COX2 pathway.

best, John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, 6, 6.5, 6.9999, 6.5 on Wheldon/Stratton Protocol beginning 04/12/2006
naci 4x600 mg/day
doxycycline 2x100mg/day
azithromycin 3x250mg/day MWF
metronidazolei 3x400mg/day then 3x500mg/day

John,

I think you lumped my reply about how the MD that has studied homeopathic remedies and the actions of the MP (he uses the MP for many of his chronic pain patients) would never combine the two if Traumeel had an impact on D in with the rest of the info on homeopathy.  

I can add that I've never had an issue with my D levels using this and I test every 3 months.  Traumeel never altered my D levels that I could see as I've used it off and on and would have noticed it. As you're prob aware, I've deprived myself of D as well as increased it again.

Were you thinking it might or could block production of either 25D or the active metabolite or something else concerning D?

This is the best I can help you.  Please let me know if you discover anything else and I'll do the same.

NACi 2.4g, Zithi 250mg/MWF, minoi 200mg, Tinii 5day/1g/5 pulses, Valcyte
Supplementsi, CFIDSi/FMSi, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBSi, Sec Addisons

Don't believe everything you think!  

Hi John / Reenie,

Just did a quick google on Traumeel.   This site seems to list the ingredients:

http://www.naturalhealthconsult.com/Monographs/traumeel.html<

Traumeelhomeopathic tablets contain in each 300 mg tablet:

Belladonna 4X 75 mg
Arnica montana radix 3X 40 mg
Aconitum napellus 3X 30 mg
Chamomilla 3X 24 mg
Symphytum officinale 8X 24 mg
Calendula officinalis 2X 15 mg
Hamamelis virginina 2X 15 mg
Millefolium 2X 15 mg
Hepar sulphuris calcareum  8X 15 mg
Mercurius solubilis 8X  15 mg
Hypericum perforatum 3X 8 mg
Bellis perennis 2X 6 mg
Echinacea augustifolia 2X 6 mg
Echinacea purpurea 2X 6 mg

 

Just doing a quick search through pubmed on each ingredient and 5-lipoxygenase, here's the ones I found in studies suggesting they have 5-lipoxygenase inhibiting or LTB4 blocking qualities:

I'm sure with a little more time I could find others in the ingredients list.   These herbal anti-inflammatories are often full of 5-lipoxygenase inhbitors and LTB4 blockers...  

Since 5-LOX and LTB4 blockers have been suggested by quite a few studies to interfere with the production of cathelicidins in infection (remember cathelicidins are an antimicrobial peptide that Vit D3 helps induce), you really may want to talk the above studies and those found on the following thread with your doctors before taking them (or just run for the hills!!!Laughing):

Cathelicidins and LTB4< 

Anyway, hope this might help...

 

 

 

 

 

Treatment for Rosaceai<

  • CAPi:  01/06-07/07
  • High-Dose Vit D3, NACi:  07/07-11/08
  • Intermtnt CAP, HDose Vit D3:  11/08-01/09
  • HDose Vit D3, Mg, Zn: 01/09-

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