Cpnhelp.org - Chlamydia Pneumoniae Treatment

Hey Daisy, I don't have MSi but my natural MD was OK with my list from the site.

Peace

Ruth

CFIDSi/ME, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, Cpni, Babesia, insomnia (sleep- melatonini, GABA, tarazadone, temazepam, novocyclopine, allergy formula, 2 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, Doxyi 200 mg day pm, Azith 250 mg M/W/Fday

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CFIDSi/ME 32 yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, CMV, Cpni, chronic insomnia, Lymes, HME, Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, Pulse#13 1240 mg X 3 days 8-7-08

 Daisy- As I understand it:

• Quercitin helps slow down the efflux pumps which tend to pump antibioticsi out of the cells, so it keeps the cellular concentrations of antibiotics higher. Dr. Stratton still considers it useful even though some other research suggests  in vitro it may promote Cpni growth.
• Tryptophan is contraindicated because it is directly used by replicating Cpn and is used in laboratory research to put Cpn into the persistant cryptic formi (by starving it of tryptophan) and bringing it back into RB form (by feeding it more tryptophan). 5-HTP is a precurser of tryptophan, and you'd have to take a look at the research on what it does to blood levels of tryptophan to see if it has a wider or more local effect (ie only in the brain where it supports serotonin production).
• Melatonini is not contraindicated in any way that I know of on this site. There is much to suggest that it is depleted in oxidative stress such as chronic infection and porphyriai, and so supplementation could be desirable. 

CAPi for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFSi & FMSi- Currently: 300mg INHi, 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, 1000mg Tinii daily (Taking a break from continuous protocol)

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

Jim - Thanks for taking the time to post these comments.  I am going to really dig in and do some heavy lit searches!    As always - longing for randomized, placebo controlled, multi centered,... data.   My dream job would be working for the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to set up clinical trials to do the work that no drug company would do - on use of supplementsi and antibioticsi for autoimmune diseasesi - dreaming dreaming dreaming...

Here is an interesting medical hypothesis generated out of Dept of Ped at Univ of Illinois on a different variant of Chlamydia (trachomatis) and tryptophan. From Med Hypotheses 2007.

http://tinyurl.com/2ujnsw

Department of Pediatrics, University of Illinois, 840 S. Wood St., CSB Chicago, IL 60612, USA. msingla@uic.edu

Chlamydia trachomatis, an intracellulari pathogen, is the leading cause of preventable blindness and sexually transmitted infectionsi in the world. Infection of epithelial cells with Chlamydia results in the production of antigeni-specific IFN-gamma -secreting CD4+ and CD8+ T cells. IFN-gamma activates indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase (IDO), an enzyme that degrades tryptophan in the host cell. This IDO mediated tryptophan starvation is known to activate genesi for persistencei in the Chlamydia, which renders antibiotics ineffectiveness against it. Tryptophan supplementation causes reactivation of Chlamydia from persistent into metabolically active forms and then the antibiotics easily eradicate these active forms of Chlamydia. Therefore treating the chronic Chlamydia infection with antibiotics and tryptophan together may lead to better clearance of Chlamydia infection, and may be a better therapeutic approach in the future.

This researcher seems to  postulating that depleted tryptophan drives the chlamydia into cryptic formi and renders the antibiotics as in effective and that therefore supplementing tryptophan will change the life cycle of chlamydia back to RB form. 

The researcher may be generating this hypothesis on the basis of this article that Marie already had posted in the research section. http://tinyurl.com/33r4je

Also - interestingly - http://tinyurl.com/2zqku6 is some pretty well done research on the use of melatonini to potentiate INHi in the treatment of CPNi's crafty cousin TB.  Hmmm....

No answers yet, only more questions

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAPi 5/10/07. Doxyi 200 mg, AZI 250mg MWF, NACi 1800mg, 2 Scoops Lauricidin, Colloidal Silver, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplementsi.

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Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

Ooops - the link to Marie's article didn't work  - here it is again -

http://tinyurl.com/33r4je

Also - forgot to mention in previous post that this article contains a great picture of RB's and EBi's that you can blow up and have a clear look and see.

 

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAPi 5/10/07. Doxyi 200 mg, AZI 250mg MWF, NACi 1800mg, 2 Scoops Lauricidin, Colloidal Silver, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplementsi.

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Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

Very cool stuff Daisy. We definitely need the abstract above in the research pages next to the one you reference. Most of us have been avoiding tryptophan for the purpose of allowing the body to use that approach, but this is a totally different idea. Very interesting marie On CAPi since Sept '05 for MSi, RA, Asthmai, sciatica. EDSSi at start 5.5. Currently on: Doxyi 200, Azith 3x week, Tinii cont. since April '07, all supplementsi. "Color out side the lines!"

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On CAPi since Sept '05 for MSi, RAi, Asthmai, sciatica. EDSSi at start 5.5.(early cane) Now 6 (cane full time) Currently on: Doxyi 200, Azith 3x week, Tinii cont. over summer '07, back to pulses of flagyli winter '08 all supplementsi. "Color out side the lines

Okay - One more and then I am stopping.

http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/content/abstract/917/1/376

Good Article on Melatonini an It's Relation to the Immunei System and Inflammationi from Univ of Texas Health Science Center

I've tried to take Melatonin personally in the past and d/c'd it  because it seemed to lead me to make 5 or 6 groggy trips during the night to the bathroom to urinate.  Now I am wondering just how much it was cleaning up toxins and depositing them for execretion.  Just pondering...  May have to give this a whirl again.

 

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAPi 5/10/07. Doxyi 200 mg, AZI 250mg MWF, NACi 1800mg, 2 Scoops Lauricidin, Colloidal Silver, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplementsi.

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Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

A paper which was posted here a while ago said that Chlamydia pneumoniae, unlike Chlamydia trachomatis, has genesi for tryptophan synthesis. ("Genome Sequences of Chlamydia trachomatis MoPn and Chlamydia pneumoniae AR39", by T.D. Read et al.) So tryptophan may not matter much for us Cpni sufferers. As for 5-HTP, it's best avoided, for fear of heart valve effects (see here for details).

All right - I admit I have the sickness today but I was wired last night - so researching and pulling those "most" interesting articles to read today in the clearer headed light of day.

Want to also share this with group... not trying to say one way or the other as to whether we should or shouldn't supplement with melatonini or it's tryptophan/5HTP precursors.  Just researching to become better informed.

Article from Journal of Clinical Endocrinology Metabolism , Feb 2005.

http://tinyurl.com/23mnyj  (abstract) or

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/2/992

I like this paper because it attempts to sort through via some good science why there are differing results between melatonin and the immunei system in vitro (in lab petri dish) as reported in literature and the in vivo (in the human body) results as reported. 

Often they are different and hence why so many of doctors will scoff when you bring them in vitro only research.  Any good doc knows that it's really in vivo research you need when making treatment decisions. 

Of course often those desparately ill and with little other choice will make of themselves antedotal guinea pigs and try something based on the in vitro only data  - C'est moi?

Exerpt from the abstract. 

"This paper shows that human lymphocyte-synthesized melatonin plays a crucial role modulating IL-2/IL-2 receptor system because when blocking melatonin biosynthesis by the tryptophan hydroxylase inhibitor, parachlorophenylalanine, both IL-2 and IL-2 receptor levels fell, restoring them by adding exogenous melatonin. Moreover, we demonstrated that this endogenous melatonin interfered with the exogenous melatonin effect on IL-2 production."

Now in English to me- IL 2 and IL2 receptors being down regulated is problematic.   IL 2 is important because A) it assists in the development of immunogenic T-Cell memory and B) it acts up on the Thymus (blood cell factory) in producing the all important to those with "autoimmune" diseasesi - T Reg cells.   You really need IL-2 working optimally to differentiate between self and non self. 

So how far down this rabbit hole to go...? 

Not sure yet, but this issue with T-lymphs, melatonin and IL-2 seems worthy to give further research, time and consideration.

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAPi 5/10/07. Doxyi 200 mg, AZI 250mg MWF, NACi 1800mg, 2 Scoops Lauricidin, Colloidal Silver, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplementsi.

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Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

Melatonini is depleted in MSi, and may be a useful supplement - my supplement page may be helpful (link); melatonin is the last on the list. This paper is a very good review of melatonin's synthesis and metabolism. [Hardeland R, Pandi-Perumal SR. Melatonin, a potent agent in antioxidative defense: actions as a natural food constituent, gastrointestinal factor, drug and prodrug. Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005 2: 22.] (link)
Melatonin has in vitro activity against chlamydiae. [Rahman MA et al., Serotonin and melatonin, neurohormones for homeostasis, as novel inhibitors of infectionsi by the intracellulari parasite chlamydia J Antimicrob Chemother. 2005 56(5): 861-8.]

C. pneumoniae seems more susceptible to host tryptophan starvation strategies than other chlamydiae; it has lost all the genesi necessary for tryptophan synthesis [Xie G, Bonner CA, Jensen RA. Dynamic diversity of the tryptophan pathway in chlamydiae: reductive evolution and a novel operon for tryptophan recapture. Genome Biol. 2002 Aug 29; 3(9) :research0051.] In this well-written paper, which reviews the tryptophan starvation / chlamydial persistencei issues in some detail, the authors note:

''Deterioration of tryptophan-pathway genes in the chlamydiae

Chlamydial species have generally undergone reductive evolution that includes an inability to synthesize tryptophan from chorismate. That the process of reductive evolution is ongoing is suggested by the variability of remaining remnants and by indications that some of these remnants are pseudogenes. At one extreme, C. pneumoniae has lost all tryptophan-pathway genes; C. muridarum has only one remnant (trpC); and C. trachomatis has three remnants (trpC, trpEa and trpEb). It appears that C. psittaci alone assigns a functional role to tryptophan-pathway genes, but it is a kynurenine-to-tryptophan pathway rather than a chorismate-to-tryptophan pathway. Thus, even C. psittaci is dependent upon host resources (that is, kynurenine) for tryptophan.''

I'm wary of tryptophan supplementation since the Eosinophilia-Myalgia syndrome (link).

D W - [Myalgia and hypertensioni (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now; just supplementsi and IR sauna. Morning BP typically 105/75]

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D W - [Myalgia and hypertensioni (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now; just supplementsi and IR sauna. Morning BP typically 105/75]

In view of DW's post, I went back and looked at the paper I'd mentioned. I'd remembered it incorrectly: it was one of the two variants of C. trachomatis which had tryptophan synthesis enzymes, not C. pneumoniae.

David - Thanks for weighing in on this.  I look forward to reading through your post on this matter.

Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis. Began CAPi 5/10/07. Doxyi 200 mg, AZI 250mg MWF, NACi 1800mg, 2 Scoops Lauricidin, Colloidal Silver, Novantrone, Prednisone and daily pound of supplementsi.

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Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

this is an old thread, but I'll just add this.  In my research on porphyriai over the years, I recall reading that genetic porphyria patients could not process tryptophan.  I have tried 5HTP several times and just got so clobbered.  Hmm.