all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, now 4.??? on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007

___________________________________________________________

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

 Both INHi [1] and Metronidazolei [5] are "prodrugs" which operate by triggering oxidation within the bacterium:

Now, on the resistance issue: INH is a prodrug and is converted to the active drug, a free-radical,  by catalases/peroxidases – which may be supplied by the pathogen or perhaps by the cell, if the cell is a monocytei [9]i [10]/macrophage. Metronidazole is also a prodrug and is converted by electrons to the active drug, a free-radical. Free-radicals damage DNA/RNA and can destroy the pathogen and in some cases the host cell. Although it does happen, resistance to free-radicals is much less likely to occur.

From the Handbook: Comments from Dr. Stratton: http://www.cpnhelp.org/dr_stratton_answers_some_ [11]

CAPi [12] for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi [15], 500mg MWF Azith, Tinii [16] 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

___________________________________________________________

CAPi [12] for Cpni [17] 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii [16] 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

John -

Just curious - why only pulse the INHi [1]?  Have you decided to bump the dose up on any of your current antibioticsi [19] too?

I always follow your posts with great interest!

One possible rationale for calcium channel blockers and antibioitics is that the calcium channel blocker may also block the efflux pumps and allow more drug / bug activity.  In cancer treatment it is common to use verapamil an oldie goldie calcium channel blocker to boost the ability of the chemo agent into the cell.  There is a small lot of data published by Pfizer relative to using verapamil as a pg-inhib to boost zithromax levels into cells.

Good luck with your experiment.

^{Daisy - Husband on CAPi [12] 5/07.  Minoi [20], Roxyi [21], Diflucan round two 1-31, Rifampin, Bactrim DS, Prednisone, Novantrone, Doxyi [15], Azithromycin, Flagyli [5]}

___________________________________________________________

Daisy - Husband on CAPi [12] 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

Thanks Jim      

I wasn't aware that Dr. Stratton recommendations were to take both at the same time but had thought that I would do that.  Unfortunately, I just finished my last pulse of Flagyl last week so that would have to wait.  However, the indication is that since I'm taking Rifampin, Doxyi [15], NACi [4], and Zithi [23], then taking INHi [1] without Metro will still be helpful, although not as potent as pairing the two together.  Consequently it sounds like it's worth doing anyway. 

Thanks again for posting the links.

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, now 4.??? on Wheldon Protocol (nac, doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007

___________________________________________________________

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

Hi Daisy

Well, I was thinking that pulsing INHi [1] would effectively give me the same kill off effect that I would get when pairing it with Flagyl, though not to the same extent perhaps.  I'm not currently on either continuously and only have enough INH to take it for five days or so, if memory serves.  However, if it is a bigger prescription then 1 week then I could go on it daily rather then pulsing it.  I doubt I have a prescription for taking it daily though as that was never discussed.

I haven't yet contacted my doctor about upping the dosages for any of the medications.  I need to do that as well as talking to him about using calcium channel blockers.  I'm wondering what side effects using  one would have, aside from making the abxi [19] more effective? 

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, now 4.??? on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007

___________________________________________________________

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

Okay, got home tonight and checked my INHi [1] prescription.  It's for a daily dose of 300mg, 30 pills.  I've got a six month supply of refills.  So, I'm really thinking of doing it.  I think it's probably time to do something more.

I'd appreciate it if anyone who knows what side affects to watch for other then typical herx reactions would let me know what they know, thanks. 

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, now 4.??? on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007

___________________________________________________________

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

 John- interestingly, I just got this today from Dr. Stratton. I can't say it's a response to your post, but he does scan the site from time to time. The source isn't attributed, but I think it's from one of the patents:

Novel Antichlamydial Therapy Directed Toward the Replicating and Cryptic Stationary Phases of Chlamydia Infection 



A unique class of antichlamydial agents that is effective against the replicating and cryptic stationary phases of Chlamydia (and possibly against some other stages of the cryptic phase) have been identified using the susceptibility tests described herein. This novel class of agents comprises ethambutol and isonicotinic acid congeners, which include isoniazid (INHi [1]), isonicotinic acid (also known as niacini [25]), nicotinic acid, pyrazinamide, ethionamide, and aconiazide; where INH is most preferred. Although these are currently considered effective only for mycobacterial infectionsi [26], due in part to currently available susceptibility testing methodologies, it has been discovered that these agents, in combination with other antibioticsi [19], are particularly effective against Chlamydia. It is believed that the isonicotinic acid congeners are prodrugs that are converted to reactive radicals by the constitutive production of catalases and/or peroxidases, which is a characteristic of microorganisms, such as Mycobacteria, that infect monocytes and macrophages.
Chlamydia can also successfully infect monocytes and macrophages and are know to possess a gene for a thio-specific antioxidanti [27] peroxidase (i.e., Q0Z7C8_CHLPN) and may produce other catalases and/or peroxidases. These catalases/peroxidases would be particularly likely to be produced by Chlamydia infecting macrophages and monocytes. Moreover, using INH to eradicate Chlamydia from macrophages and monocytes subsequently assists these cells in their role of fighting infection. However, isonicotinic acid congeners alone appear to be less effective, in vitro, against the cryptic phase. Thus, ethambutol, INH and other isonicotinic acid congeners ideally should be used in combination with other antichlamydial agents that target other phases of the chlamydial life cycle. These isonicotinic acid congeners are nevertheless excellent agents for the long-term therapy of chronic/systemic chlamydial infection generally, and in particular to chlamydial infection of nervous tissues as well as infection of endothelial and smooth muscle cells in human blood vessels.
INH and its congeners can be used to clear infection from monocytes and/or macrophages. When monocytes and macrophages are infected by Chlamydia, they become debilitated and cannot properly or effectively fight infection. It is believed that, if the chlamydial infection, per se, is cleared from these cells, then the monocytes and macrophages can resume their critical roles fighting chlamydial and/or other infection(s). Thus, patient responsiveness to combination therapy can be optimized by the inclusion of isonicotinic acid congeners.
Accordingly, this aspect of therapy provides a specific method for reempowering monocytes or macrophages that have been compromised by a Chlamydia infection and, in turn, comprise treating the infection in other sites. Such compromised macrophages or monocytes can be activated by treating the chlamydial infection by contacting the infected macrophages and/or monocytes with an antichlamydial agent.

CAPi [12] for Cpni [17] 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi [15], 500mg MWF Azith, Tini 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

___________________________________________________________

CAPi [12] for Cpni [17] 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii [16] 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

I thought I would resurrect this thread with a question and a report.  The question is about INHi [1], of course.  I was wondering, is INH a bacteriostatic or the other type of abxi [19].  I for the life of me can't remember the term so I'll leave that for some kind soul to fill in the blanks for me.  Basically, I read above that Jim said it was a pro-drug and therefore would conclude that it is similar to flagyl and not a bacteriostatic.  Is that the case?

Ok, the report is that I have indeed not been pulsing INH but instead have been taking it continuously since I started taking it.  I just finished a pulse on Thursday of last week and took INH while on the pulse.  I still take it and just took my dose for today not an hour ago.

When I take INH, I take it with the bacteriostactics Doxyi [15] and Azi, and of course a dose of NACi [4] at the same time.  I sandwich that between doses of Rifampin which I take in the morning around 9:30 and the evening around 6 PM. 

I haven't seen anything dramatic from it but I do get a feeling that something is happening.  I'm not of the opinion...yet...that it's anything really to make any big difference, but the jury is still out on that since I've only been on it a relatively short time (45 days or so).

Case in point, I could barely walk out to my car today and fell repeatedly.  I had to drag myself over to a tree to lean against as I pushed myself upright.  Then, after making it over to a concrete stoop and resting for a bit, walked very unsteadily to my car, pausing in the process at a tree along the way.

Then, later in the day, I felt better and wasn't having this problem.  I have been walking with more steadiness and less trouble.  Still not like I have at other times but definitely better than this morning.

Anyway, just thought I would include that.  Let me know about the bacteriostatics/bacterioxyz term, thanks.

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, was 4.???, now 5 on Wheldon Protocol (nac, doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007. Added INH 300mg/daily on 03/17/2008.

___________________________________________________________

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

John- I think the term is bacteriacidal, i.e. it just kill's 'em. INHi [1] should be taken on an empty stomach, so if you are taking the other abxi [19] with food, just slip it in first thing in morning when you get up. 

This article [28] gives a sense of the complexity of treating TB and why multiple agents are sometimes used. I expect that the picture in Cpni [17] is different, but it does give a sense that the use of INH with the rifampin is good coverage because of their complimentary characteristics. 

CAPi [12] for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi [15], 250mg MWF Azith, Tinii [16] 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

___________________________________________________________

CAPi [12] for Cpni [17] 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii [16] 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

Thanks Jim, that was indeed the term I was hunting for but couldn't recall.  It's not common for me to be forgetful about such things, although the timing was suspect, given I had just taken three abxi [19] plus NACi [4] not an hour earlier.  It's entirely possible that my little noodle was busy processing the dying Cpn.  Let's hope so anyway.

I read the article you posted.  Interesting how they observed the reactions of the two abxi [29] sort of playing complimentary roles.  I wonder what being on Doxyi [15] and Azi would do, if anything.  Given that they aren't bacteriocidal, I'm guessing not much would be different.  But having everything going at once would be a boon and of course, we're talking Cpn not Tuberculosis.  Might be somewhat different. 

Oh, by the way, my property manager decided to cut the tree down that I had used this morning as a crutch in order to get on my feet.  I guess I'll have no choice but to work harder not to fall...that or be prepared to crawl further.

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, was 4.???, now 5 on Wheldon Protocol (nac, doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily on 03/17/2008.

___________________________________________________________

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

Bacteriostatic - you cripple the buggers so the bodies immunei [30] system can finish them off.  Usually bacteriostatic agents disrupt some cellular food function of the bacteria to cripple them.

Bacteriocidal - the agent flat out kills the bacteria

It's all tested in the lab via zone measurements in petri dishes.  Often you will see the terms MBC and MIC used relative to antibioticsi [19] and pathogens.  MBC - Minimum Bacteriocidal Concentration and MIC - Minimum Inhibitory Concentration (static).  Simplfied explanation but the general gist of it.

Individual antibiotics may be both bacteriostatic or bacteriocidal depending on the concentration (dose dependent) of the antibiotic as well as the pathogen in question.

For example an antibiotic may be

Bacteriocidal ('cidal) against Pathogen A at a dose of 200 mg

Bacteriostatic ('static) against Pathogen B at a dose of 200mg

Bacteriocidal against Pathogen B at a dose of 400mg

So the same antibiotic can be concidered 'cidal against pathogen A at a dose of 200mg, 'cidal against Pathogen B at a dose of 400mg and 'static against Pathogen B at a dose of 200mg.

All dose and drug to bug dependent.

Higher doses of many antibiotics tend to be 'cidal and lower doses 'static

Doxycycline is a good example - 100mg BID is generally 'static against most pathogens and 300mg BID is generally 'cidal.  Not concrete but in general.

In patients with highly compromised immune system (HIV for example) it is generally preferred to use 'cidal agents or 'cidal doses of an agent.

Hope this explains what you were interested in.

^{Daisy - Husband on CAPi [12] 5/07.   Roxyi [21], Diflucan round three 4-4, Rifampin, Bactrim DS, Mepron 4-6, Prednisone, Novantrone, Doxy, Azithromycin, Flagyli [5], Minoi [20]}

___________________________________________________________

Daisy - Husband on CAPi [12] 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

Thanks Daisy         

I knew the differenece between the two but your explanation is a good reminder of what it is. 

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, was 4.???, now 5 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily on 03/17/2008.

___________________________________________________________

all my best

John

RRMSi [2]/EDSSi [3] was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci [4], doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei [5]) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi [1] 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

Hi all,

I am new here and have been reading the site, but not posting.  Too new to even know what to say.

 I have lyme and have now added  Cpni [17] components to my CAPi [12].  I was very  interested in this particular post because I have been on INHi [1] for a few weeks.  I take one a day and pulse Azith M W F.  This was added to my lyme protocol which I have been on for some time. (Amox, and flagyli [5]).  I don't pulse flagyl.  I have been taking it everyday since October.  I guess you can say I am doing a modified Stratton.  My doctor seems to be up on  Stratton .

Any comments would be welcome.

 Hi nomad- post your story and protocol on a blog post. Blogs syay connrcted to your account and name and become your own personal thread that folks can respond to. We'd like to hear more about how you are responding to these additions and to your starting protocol.

CAPi [12] for Cpni [17] 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi [15],300mg Roxithromycin, Tinii [16] 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

___________________________________________________________

CAPi [12] for Cpni [17] 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi [13] & FMSi [14]. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii [16] 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3