Cpnhelp.org - Chlamydia Pneumoniae Treatment

Nicolson is finding this in 50% of CFSi/fibro patients by PCRi.

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

here is a summary of Lo's peer reviewed work.

http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1990/ATN09501.html

And Garth and Nancy Nicolosons new book Project Day Lily.

http://www.projectdaylily.com/

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

The combined antibiotic protocol I am on has a tetracycline and azithromycin together. They work better together better than alone, and work against a number of pathogens. Combined Antibiotic Protocol minocycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei for muscle pain, insomnia, interstitial cystitisi, sinus, disphonia, dry eyes, stiff neck, veins, thyroid, TMJ.

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Combined Antibiotic Protocol minocycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei for muscle pain, insomnia, interstitial cystitisi, sinus, disphonia, dry eyes, stiff neck, veins, thyroid, TMJ.

(ATN) MYCOPLASMA INCOGNITUS: Newly Discovered Treatable Opportunistic Infection?

AIDS TREATMENT NEWS No. 095 - January 26, 1990
John S. James

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Researchers at the U. S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) in Washington, D. C., and the Warren Grant Magnuson Clinical Center at the National Institutes of Health, have found compelling evidence that a previously unrecognized opportunistic infection -- one potentially treatable with antibioticsi -- may be a major cause of illness in people with AIDS. Many infectionsi of organs including the brain, spleen, liver, or lymph nodes -- as well as some systemic infections -- might be caused by the newly-discovered organism, called Mycoplasma incognitus. Until now, these infections would be counted among the many which cannot be diagnosed.

While the first report of the organism now known as Mycoplasma incognitus was published over three years ago, most of what is now known was learned later and published last year. And only in the last few weeks has the AIDS research community paid serious attention. Until recently the new organism was mistakenly believed to be a virus, and its discovery seemed to have little immediate relevance to treatment.

Then a series of five articles by Shyh-Ching Lo and others in the American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, between February and November 1989, showed:

(1) The new organism is a mycoplasma -- which is potentially treatable. Mycoplasma, a form of life between bacteria and viruses in complexity, was discovered about 100 years ago. Some species are known to cause human diseasesi.

The published articles only hint that the new organism might be treatable with antibiotics. But scientists at AFIP tested 15 common antibiotics against the Mycoplasma incognitus in the laboratory. A detailed report is being prepared for publication, but because of the public-health importance of the information, AFIP released a list of the drugs and their effective concentrations in a separate document. Doxycycline, tetracycline, clindamycin, lincomycin, and ciprofloxacin were found to be effective against Mycoplasma incognitus. But erythromycin, the antibiotic most commonly used to treat mycoplasma infections, was not effective -- and penicillin, streptomycin, gentamicin, and others also had no effect.

(2) Mycoplasma incognitus was found in the thymus, liver, spleen, lymph node, or brain of 22 of 34 persons who had died of AIDS. The patients who were selected for this autopsy study had all had evidence of organ failures.

(3) In a separate study with different patients, the mycoplasma was found in seven of ten persons with AIDS. Also, a much earlier study had found Mycoplasma incognitus in blood lymphocytes of 12 of 23 living persons with AIDS -- but in none of 22 healthy blood donors used as controls.

(4) The mycoplasma was also found in six HIV-negative patients (with no sign of AIDS) from different parts of the world, who had died in one to seven weeks of an undiagnosed infection.

No one knows how the organism spreads, but evidently it is not by casual contact, as family members of infected persons have not become infected themselves.

(5) Four monkeys were injected with Mycoplasma incognitus; all died in seven to nine months. The organism was found in the spleens of all the monkeys, and in some other organs as well. It was not found in a fifth monkey tested as a control.

(6) Extensive evidence from electron-microscope examinations, from specially designed PCRi tests to look for the DNA of Mycoplasma incognitus, and from immunologic tests, showed that the organism was concentrated in lesions in affected organs. Mycoplasma incognitus is unusual in that it often infects and kills tissue without causing an inflammatory reaction, suggesting that it disables or evades part of the immunei system.

The publication of this evidence, much of it in November 1989, led to a meeting between Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of NIAID (the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases) and other AIDS experts, with Dr. Lo and his colleagues at AFIP. The meeting, on December 14, 1989 in San Antonio, was chaired by Dr. Joel B. Baseman, chairman of the Department of Microbiology at the University of Texas Health Sciences Center in San Antonio, an expert on mycoplasma. An article in THE WASHINGTON POST (January 5) quoted Dr. Baseman as saying that Lo's mycoplasma "might be a significant agent for many infectious diseases, not just AIDS. There is enough information to say that this agent is real." The same article quoted Dr. Fauci as saying that Mycoplasma incognitus "may be an important opportunistic infection ...If it's real, it could have an important impact on how doctors look at AIDS patients with unexplained problems."

An in-depth history of the discovery of Mycoplasma incognitus and its early dismissal by parts of the scientific community was published in THE NEW YORK TIMES, January 16, 1990.

Summary

The organism previously called a "virus-like infectious agent," discovered by Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo and colleagues at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, has been found to be a mycoplasma which is susceptible to several common antibiotics. Even before a blood test is widely available and clinical trials have been done, physicians may want to consider this new information when choosing empirical antibiotic treatment for patients with certain undiagnosed problems. We will report further as more information becomes available.

References

Altman LK. Unusual microbe, once dismissed, is now taken more seriously. THE NEW YORK TIMES, January 16, 1990, page B6.

Booth, W; Specter, M. Microbe may play role in AIDS, other diseases. THE WASHINGTON POST, January 5, 1990, page A3.

Lo SC; Dawson MS; Wong DM; Newton PB 3d; Sonoda MA; Engler WF; Wang RY; Shih JW; Alter JH; Wear DJ. Identification of Mycoplasma incognitus infection in patients with AIDS: an immunohistochemical, in situ hybridization and ultrastructural study. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, November 1989, volume 41, number 5, pages 601- 616.

Lo SC; Shih JW; Newton PB 3d; Wong DM; Hayes MM; Benish JR; Wear DJ; Wang RY. Virus-like infectious agent (VLIA) is a novel pathogenic mycoplasma: Mycoplasma incognitus. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, November 1989, volume 41, number 5, pages 586-600.

Lo SC; Dawson MS; Newton PB 3rd; Sonoda MA; Shih JW; Engler WF; Wang RY; Wear DJ. Association of the virus-like infectious agent originally reported in patients with AIDS with acute fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, September 1989, volume 41, number 3, pages 364-376.

Lo SC; Wang RY; Newton PB 3d; Yang NY; Sonoda MA; Shih JW. Fatal infection of silvered leaf monkeys with a virus-like infectious agent (VLIA) derived from a patient with AIDS. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, April 1989, volume 40, number 4, pages 399-409.

Lo SC; Shih JW; Yang NY; Ou CY; Wang RY. A novel virus-like infectious agent in patients with AIDS. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, February 1989, volume 40, number 2, pages 213-226.

In addition, the NEW YORK NATIVE has published frequent and sometimes controversial coverage of this research.

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Brosoupi, It would be most helpful if you would set up a signature and give us a bit of background concerning your condition and form of treatment.  To do so you can go to My Account included in the list  on the left side of your screen and click there. 

Thanks, Louise

CFSi/ME.CPni positive.Bb positive.

6/24/07WheldonCAPstartedDoxy&NACi.

11/3/07Roxi150mgBIDadded.

11/22/07#2PulseTinidazole500mgBIDadded.

11/27/07CholestyraminePostPulse/PorphoriaSymptomsAdded.

1/15/08 Cont.Cholesty.atBedtimeForFatigue,Brainfog,mood.

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Louise  CFSi, CPN+/Bb+, Wheldon CAPi 6/07, Cholestyramine 1-2 pks @ HS for Porphoria & Endotoxinsi PRN, Doxy100daily, Roxi300BID, Tinii 500mgBID pulses, VitD3-4000IU, Magnascent Iodine,{S.O.D.3/QD[KAL Brand], +Pyruvate 3.75G +SAM-e For Energy support

 The only way to know is to get tested for both..I got tested for both and came back positive for both. my doc says the protocol will cover both..I sure hope he is right. (my sister got tested for both and came back positive for myco and  neg for CPNi).

Mphs, TN. CFSi, hypoT (Hashi), weak adrenals, 37 w/hormones of 80 yo. right arm neuropathy. + for cpn, myco, EBVi, CMV. on NACi 3600mg, doxyi 100-2xday, azith 250 m/w/f, estriol, progesterone, synthroid, and pulsing w/flagyli.

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Mphs, TN. CFSi, hypoT (Hashi), adrenal fatigue, 37 w/hormones of 80,. right arm neuropathy. + cpni, myco, EBVi, CMV. NACi 4000mg, doxyi 100-2xday, azith 250 m/w/f/sun, progesterone, estriol, synthroid, pulse flagyli, tinii<

If you click on the web page for the "Project Day Lily" book, you'll notice that it contains the statement "...based on a true story." In other words, it's fiction -- and not very plausible fiction, either; stealth pathogens are about the last thing the military would ever try to weaponize. The military mindset is "I want him dead NOW"; they're really not interested in slow-growing diseasesi.

That said, mycoplasma fermentans (which this 'incognitus' stuff is one strain of) is definitely a serious pathogen, and is one of the things Dr. Katz tested me for (and didn't find).

Garth and Nancy Nicolson were 2 of the top cancer resercherers at the MD cancer center in Texas in 1990.  When they found this in the blood of 50% of  sick GWI /CFS vets one vets armed agents from the DOD according to them threatened them to to stop their research.

Their boss DR. Fred Conrad was shot in the head 6 times in a professional hit right before he was going to blow the whistle on illegal testing.  Their Book "project Day Lily" according to them had to be fictionilized to stay out of court and protect their sources in the Pentagon, other than that its a true story according to them.

A microbe mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans that kills every animal injected seems like a great weapon to me, especially since HIV, Hepatitis C, do not induce disease in animals, and the father of bacteriology nobel prize winner Robert Koch said you had to induce disease in experimental animals, as Lo did, to prove pathenogenicity in humans.  Obviously there are exceptions, but based on the science this seems to be one of the most debilitating microbes ever.

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

testing signature

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

This is in my signature but is not working yet

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Sharon,

This protocol should definatly work for both mycoplasma and CPNi, if anything the CPN protocol is more potent than Nicolsons protocol, because it combines 2 abxi that attack cell wall less bacteria, while nicolsons just does one.

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Since when does Mycoplasma fermentans, or incognitus, or penetrans or whatever, kill every animal injected? (Well, maybe if you inject it using a .44 Magnum...)

We still do pretty much have free speech here in the US; the only way Nicolson would end up in court for saying that his book was true would be if the book contained libels against someone -- which would require it to be false, since in the US, truth is an absolute defense to libel charges. (Indeed, if the person libeled is a public figure, then an even stricter standard applies: the statements must not only be untrue, but also must have been published maliciously or with reckless disregard for the truth, for them to be libel.)

By the way, Koch himself never was dogmatic about his postulates being the only way to prove that a germ caused a disease. He just said that if you do satisfy them, then you have proven it, not that there's no other way to prove it.

 I posted these refrences above summarizing Dr. Shyh Ching Lo's MD PHD's, the militarys highest ranking scientist work above which shows it kills animals that are inoculated, unlike HIV etc.

"The meeting was led by Dr. Joel B. Baseman, a mycoplasma expert at the University of Texas Health Sciences Center at San Antonio. He said the participants were ''very impressed with the quality of science that Dr. Lo's group displayed.''

''The pathology data was solid and convinced us that the agent is in the tissues,'' Dr. Baseman said. The ability of M. incognitus to cause a fatal wasting disease in monkeys and mice persuaded most participants that the microbe ''has the potential to cause disease in humans,'' Dr. Baseman said"

Altman LK. Unusual microbe, once dismissed, is now taken more seriously. THE NEW YORK TIMES, January 16, 1990, page B6.

 

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Fatal systemic infectionsi of nonhuman primates by Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain).

American Registry of Pathology, Department of Infectious and Parasitic Diseasesi Pathology, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Washington, D.C. 20306-6000.

Four silvered leaf monkeys inoculated with Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain) showed wasting syndromes and died in 7-9 months. Infected animals had a late and transient antibody response to mycoplasmal infection. Three monkeys revealed periodic mycoplasmal antigenemia. The one that had the most persistent antigenemia failed to mount a detectable antibody response and was the first to die of the infection. The control monkey was killed 8 months later, after the last of the infected animals had died, and revealed no evidence of seroconversion or antigenemia. Polymerase chain reaction, immunohistochemical, and electron microscopic studies identified systemic infections of M. fermentans in the infected animals. No other opportunistic infection or neoplastic disease was found. It is interesting to note the absence of an inflammatory reaction to the large number of mycoplasmas in the infected tissues. M. fermentans (incognitus strain) apparently suppressed normal inflammatory or immunei responses, produced wasting syndromes, and caused a fatal systemic infection in these monkeys.

PMID: 8399931 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Here is another animal inoculation by Lo, every chicken embryo he inoculated died/deformed.  So mice, monkeys, embryos all sicken and die with this infection, Refrences posted above, sad how bad the medical establishment is to make people live with an undiagnosed infection.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=174241&blobtype=pdf

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

That last paper says "Cumulative mortality for chicken embryos infected via the yolk sac was 10 to 30% for Mycoplasma fermentans and 70 to 100% for M. penetrans." That's different from all of them dying. The paper doesn't even say all of them became deformed, although most did. In any case, those were chicken eggs, with a still-developing immunei system, which were injected with a hefty infectious dose; the purpose of studying them was, according to the paper, to find a system in which mycoplasma infectionsi developed faster than usual, because they usually develop so slowly as to make them inconvenient to study. Indeed, by way of background information, the paper states that in the US, "40% of HIV-positive homosexual men and 10 to 20% of HIV-negative homosexual men" are infected with M. penetrans. Those people aren't all dying fast -- especially not the HIV-negative ones. I'm not going to claim they're enjoying their infections; but it would be silly to use a disease of that level of slowness and subtlety as a military weapon, especially with it being susceptible to antibioticsi. Bioweapons developers like diseasesi like anthrax and smallpox, which kill in days; they're not interested in stealth pathogens, because the enemy response to the latter would typically be something like (cue ominous voice) "After we conquer your country, we'll show you exactly how much we appreciate your infecting us."

These diseases are bad enough without exaggerating or getting into conspiracy theories.

youre ignoring the monkeys and mice that died within months and that the purpose of the embryo study was to see how organisms that grow rapidly respond to this infection.  Keep in mind that Lo ruled it to be the cause of death in 6 healthy people that died of myterious infectionsi who died horrific deaths within weeks.  I dont expect you to beileve it was part of the biological weapons program, but this is the nicolsons claim and they claim it was developed as an incapacitating agent, I mean it could bankrupt an entire economy if everyone had CFSi etc. 

Many strange things happened to them that deserve investigation, such as being threatened by armed agents at gunpoint to stop their reasearch, many scientists including a nobel prize winner have given them rave reviews for their book project day lily. I do not claim to know the entire truth, thats why you investigate things, not dismiss things out of hand.  I understand some people will never beleive certain things, but many other people including distiguished scientists like the Nicolsons , nobel prize winner Roger Guilleman MD PHD and many other scientists that feel the Nicolsons story was compelling, as do I and many others, you dont have to believe it, but many people do.  I just put the info out there for people to decide, you dont have to agree with it.

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

For pretty much every infection, there are a few people who are unusually susceptible to it. Those six people who died were "six patients from six different geographic areas" -- which makes them sound like rare cases. A more typical report is this one, in which the disease seemed to cause "fatigue, musculoskeletal symptoms, and cognitive disturbance". (Neither report, by the way, unambiguously fingers Mycoplasma fermentans as the cause of disease; both just say that the germ was found in serious quantities, and could easily have been the cause.)

As for the experimental animals which died, pretty much every infection can be lethal if a large enough infectious dose is employed. When doing laboratory studies, researchers usually don't want to screw around with diseasesi whose impact is scarcely visible, so typically they crank up the infectious dose until the experimental animals start suffering severely.

If you care to read what others have said about Nicolson's claims, have a look at this article by Michael Fumento in Reason magazine. Some quotes:

As with Ho's results, other doctors are finding they cannot duplicate Nicolson's PCRi work on MF [mycoplasma fermentans]. This includes the man universally acknowledged as the leading expert on MF, Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. "We've never found one" Persian Gulf vet with the bacterium, says Lo. "The Nicolsons claim their technique is different," allegedly using "a special form of PCR that's more sensitive," says Lo. Specifically, they claim their test can better find MF when it's hiding in the nucleus of the cell only. Lo says that's possible, "but we never truly get the detail of how [the Nicolsons] process PCR. They just give us the statements of their results." In late December, Garth Nicolson announced that he will divulge his testing technique, but he had not done so at this writing.

That article is from 1997; maybe he's done so since? Another quote from the article:

Nancy Nicolson, according to The Mail on Sunday, the British newspaper that interviewed her, also likes to talk about how Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip visited her, how the pope gave her a gold ring, and how her family has enough money to bring down the American economy.

This is not true, Lo didnt superinject the animals with Mycoplasma, that would be fraud, he was truly trying to find out whether or not mycoplasma incognitus was pathenogenic in humans, also harmless virsues dont cause disease in animals,  when they injected Large amounts.  They have been trying to induce disease in animals with HIV for years using large doses, and even after that the hundered or so chimps inoculated with HIV 20 years ago have not died.

 Im tired of this conversation, I will take Lo's hypothesis and Nicolsons hypothesis that mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans is pathenogenic in humans, and even the DOD admits now that 50% of the GWI vets were infected with MFI in thier rigged antibiotic trial in 2001.

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

 

>> and how her family has enough money to bring down the American economy.

Well, that could easily be a garbagey smear (I mean did you see Hilly v Barack the other night?). Suppose the good doctor has an ironic taste. If I had a closetful of gold, I myself would probably go around saying that kind of thing as a joke (and we all know I'm a touch eccentric on the surface, but absolutely sober and centered deep down - right? ...right? Guys?).

Based on a minute sample size of articles read, I don't totally trust Reason... for instance their long piece against McCain (who I tend to like possibly even a little more than I should) was useful for me to read, but it reeked of polemic.

 

>> other doctors are finding they cannot duplicate Nicolson's PCRii work on MF [mycoplasma fermentans]. This includes the man universally acknowledged as the leading expert on MF

Sounds familiar. Personally I think these things happen pretty frequently throughout biology, although it's even more common in the field of uncovering new pathogens.

Also, didn't de Meirleir's lab confirm at least some of Nicolson's PCR work (not sure it was the same exact organism)? That may postdate the Reason article.

 

>>> we never truly get the detail of how [the Nicolsons] process PCR

Now, that does sound a hair questionable - but I'd hear form the other side before I totally bite.

I do think the fictionalized memoir is odd as well, though I've heard it suggested that it might have something to do with avoiding civil liability. Still, I mean... you know? Fictionalized? That's just my personal prejudice. I haven't read it. I could change my mind.

 

> This is not true, Lo didnt superinject the animals with Mycoplasma, that would be fraud

Well, I haven't examined the work - but as regards what you're saying, it's a little subjective. Where's the fine line? Would a dose of 10^6 organisms be fraudulent, but 5 x 10^5 be downright philosophical? Researchers do sometimes stack the deck and/or smuggle in stuff that isn't reasonable. For example, Norman has shown us papers in which people experimenting with concentration C of minocycline suggested that X could be occuring - and backed that up by citing a paper where X did occur when minocycline was applied at concentration 10C. Assuming concentration C simply hasn't been tested yet in regards to X, this sort of thing is fine and informative in a soft way, as long as you point out the softness - but people use "supports" like this all the time in their arguments without pointing out any weakness whatsoever.

 

> also harmless virsues dont cause disease in animals, when they injected Large amounts

I would be skeptical. At some concentration, to the best of my knowledge, any virus will induce immunity. And inflammationi is pretty much inherently pathogenic: as they say, gradual loss of organ function is the one modern addendum to the classical schema "calor, rubor, turgor, dolor" (heat, redness, swelling, and pain).

 

> Im tired of this conversation, I will take Lo's hypothesis and Nicolsons hypothesis that mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans is pathenogenic in humans,

Well good luck & god bless... but.......... Science mind != natural mind. Knowledge means constantly attacking your own position. My mind wants to have things its own way just like almost everyone else's, and it will unless I bash it into submission 32 times a day. Being objective is a difficult effort... selective reading is the easiest thing on earth.

 

> even the DOD admits now that 50% of the GWI vets were infected with MFI in thier rigged antibiotic trial in 2001.

For those of us who aren't as conversant with this material as you, reference = [?]

Are these the same organisms that have been found in signficant low percentage of normals? If so, the question is then, as usual, why should we consider this the cause of GWI/CFSi, and is there a chance it could be a common commensal that is poorly repelled/repressed because of the pecularities of the GWI/CFS physiology?

Of course, it's not necessary to answer these questions prior to taking antibacterials.

Nicoloson is a heavyweight biologist, one bipedal primate that packs a whole lot of neural synapses. His model of the cell membrane (done along with Singer) is now textbook, literally. I take his thoughts seriously, but from what I have seen of them (and I definitely haven't read everything) it doesn't look like a total home run to me personally.

It's true that viruses can be completely harmless if given to a host they weren't designed for. Viruses use a lot of the host's machinery, so their range of hosts is usually narrow, and their impact outside those hosts is usually nonexistent. Bacteria (and mycoplasma), though, are much more omnivorous; they have their specialties, but the specialization usually isn't nearly as strong.

There's nothing fraudulent about doing experiments in which the infectious dose is chosen to produce serious effects. The fraudulent thing is to turn around and claim that because that dose kills, every dose does.

In case you haven't noticed, nobody here has contested the idea of Mycoplasma fermentans or penetrans being pathogenic in humans.

Eric, here's the study I think he's talking about. It was purposely designed as a trial of treatment of mycoplasma, so only people who tested PCRi positive were included in the trial. I'm not sure whether brosoupi means that (a) about half the people in the trial had M. fermentans, the rest having some other variety of mycoplasma, or (b) about half the people considered for the trial were excluded from it because they didn't test positive for mycoplasma.

Michael Fumento does tend to be a bit much of a defender of the establishment for my tastes. In any case, he's a reporter, not an original thinker. Infection is a good candidate for the cause of Gulf War Syndrome, even if Gulf War Syndrome consists of the same things that people who haven't been to war complain about, at about the same incidence rates. But there are a lot of infectious agents to choose from -- which is why, I think, most doctors and researchers shy away from searching: it's easy to guess wrong, and waste your career. (It would help if the business were a little more forgiving towards people who guessed wrong.)

Your making pure speculations about Lo's animal models, I could just say Koch's animal models were useless because he overdosed them with TB, ie pure speculation with no evidence.  Koch never mentioned anything about "doses"  I will trust the scientists at the armed forces of pathology and their experiments/ethics unless i see compelling evidence otherwise. 

 

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Wellsir... if you mean that we (especially I) are making a bit of a comedy of ourselves by talking a lot about these experiments and related things without just reading the experiments... well that's accurate; you point out a pretty good point there...

There are bacteria, though, on your skin which could mess you up if you were injected with large numbers of them, especially if you were in poor condition. There's more of a grey area with certain bacteria then there is with Mycobacterium tuberculosis, which is quite virulent in man and guinea pig and I think in many of the other animals Koch used; less so, but still significantly so, in the mouse.

And there could be such bacteria in the blood itself – that are found in normal people and don’t harm them, but could sometimes harm some people. Traditionally the blood was felt to be sterile in health, but there is some evidence to suggest that it might not be so.

That kind of gray area is what me and Norman are talking about. Like Norman says, we don’t deny that mycoplasmae can be virulent. But they could also be secondary, and harmless. Nicolson himself says “[these findings of much higher rates of mycoplasma infection in ALS patients vs normals] support the suggestion that infectious agents may play a role in the pathogenesis and/or progression of ALS, or alternatively ALS patients are extremely susceptible to systemic mycoplasmal infectionsi.” That sentence may not necessarily fully reflect what he may think or suspect is true – the journal that reviewed his paper may have "made" him put that in, for the sake of being conservative, before they would agree to publish it. But anyway it’s a sentence he could accept. It’s from PMID 12383408 (in case you don’t know what that is…it’s a pubmed ID; just go to pubmed.com and put that number into the search blank).

So, what is the significance of incognitus as opposed to the other mycoplasmae? I know almost nothing about it in specific, myself. Do you consider it a more likely cause of GWI or CFSi than the other mycoplasma taxa Nicolson has published on? It looks like he hasn’t published on incognitus at all, am I right? Does he see it as being a particularly significant mycoplasma? In general, it seems like he finds, in a variety of illnesses, 50-80% of the ill are positive for at least one mycoplasma, and 5-7% of normals are positive - accurate? But he also finds differences between CFS and control for other microbes (chlamydiae, HHV6; see PMID12887507). So it’s not clear what exactly should be concluded from all that, except that there is at least some possibility that mycoplasmae are the primary cause of most or all CFS - or more likely, of about 50% of CFS cases, max, since that's the percentage Nicolson finds to be mycoplasma positive.

If it is clearer to you or Nicolson, then what do you see exactly?

I once thought the case for lyme borreliae in CFS was an open-and-shut thing... thought it for a long time, actually. My view gradually loosened as I dug deep into the reasons why the mainstream didn't see it that way, and got more experience generally in science and in being a skeptic. Now, I'm much more confused, or less certain anyway, about just about anything... it's nothing but confusion, but one can still act, anyway, based on the best likelihoods.

I would take a different protocol than just doxyi if it were me – I would do (and do / have done) a combination protocol. Just my opinion (and FYI I have no MD, no PhD, no nothing).

Wellsir I hope I didn't put you off with my manic preachiness about "science mind"... that's a little embarrassing... you seem like a good guy... I get a little fired up sometimes and forget I am jes a runty, bipolar Virginia boy, your basic boring jerk... or actually, am I wrong, didn't I grow up in a well-appointed suburban McMansion... it's hard to remember for certain sometimes... soyez mystérieuse...

Anyway, listen: I knew Rob Kochedy, I worked with Rob Kochedy, and senator, you're no Rob Kochedy... just kidding, little joke... get it? Lloyd Bentsen and Dan Quayle?... but seriously, Bob Coke was the fightingest epistemological hard-ass in nine counties, he jabbed 96 species of mammals with TB every morning before breakfast, he was never satisfied, why he doubted the very bacon on his plate. Why, Mister, he was just the gun-totin'-est, meanest old son-of-a ever to stick it to that big-city shoe-shine Rudolf Virchow like yew ain't never... OK, I should stick to the point... which is, I don't think he'd consider mycoplasmal causition of CFSi an open-an-shut; far from it. Look at helicobacter: prevalance 50-100%, yet the prevalance of helicobacter ulcer is more on the order of 0.1%. Koch simply didn't know about these quasi-virulent organisms, or about unculturable organisms; it wasn't imagined in his time - we should all be so lucky as to make such mild oversights in science or whatever we do.

 

> It's true that viruses can be completely harmless if given to a host they weren't designed for.

Touche. I'm not too informed about the innate immunei system's sensing of viruses. Certainly some of the patterns which are recognized, like dsRNA (made by some viruses), exist (I think) only during replication inside the host cell, not in the resting virion, which of course is just nucleic acid wrapped in a crisp, delicious protein shell. And replication, of course, could fail completely or almost completely in an off-target host.

Brosoupi, To bring your topic back to the original topic line.

May folks here have both Mycoplasma and CPni.  Testing is getting a bit beter here in the US

AND It would be most helpful if you would set up a signature and give us a bit of background concerning your condition and form of treatment if any.  To do so you can go to My Account included in the list  on the left side of your screen and click there. 

Thanks, Louise

CFSii/ME.CPni positive.Bb positive.

6/24/07WheldonCAPstartedDoxy&NACi.

11/3/07Roxi150mgBIDadded.

11/22/07#2PulseTinidazole500mgBIDadded.

11/27/07CholestyraminePostPulse/PorphoriaSymptomsAdded.

1/15/08 Cont.Cholesty.atBedtimeForFatigue,Brainfog,mood

 

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Louise  CFSi, CPN+/Bb+, Wheldon CAPi 6/07, Cholestyramine 1-2 pks @ HS for Porphoria & Endotoxinsi PRN, Doxy100daily, Roxi300BID, Tinii 500mgBID pulses, VitD3-4000IU, Magnascent Iodine,{S.O.D.3/QD[KAL Brand], +Pyruvate 3.75G +SAM-e For Energy support

here you go.

 

 

 

Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

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Suddenly became ill many years ago right after exposure.  Symptoms included an initial flu like illness, followed by memory loss spatial problems, diahreah.  Mycoplasma positive and been on Nicolson's treatment protocol 200 doxyi a day for a few months

Thanks Brosoupi.  How has the Doxyi at 200mg/ day done for you?  Are your tolerating it well?  What is the projected time frame of Nichoson's treatment? Does he add on a second antireplicant antibiotic and a flagyli like drug?  Does Mycoplasma pneumoniae require a flagyl like drug.  I really know very little about it as I was negative and not "forced to increase my knowledge base regarding it.

Welcome to our group.  I will be glad to know more about Mycoplasma and several other here with it may well be interested as well.

Louise CFSi/ME.CPni positive.Bb positive.

6/24/07WheldonCAPstartedDoxy&NACi.

11/3/07Roxi150mgBIDadded.

11/22/07#2PulseTinidazole500mgBIDadded.

11/27/07CholestyraminePostPulse/PorphoriaSymptomsAdded.

1/15/08  Cont.Cholesty.atBedtimeForFatigue,Brainfog,mood.

___________________________________________________________

Louise  CFSi, CPN+/Bb+, Wheldon CAPi 6/07, Cholestyramine 1-2 pks @ HS for Porphoria & Endotoxinsi PRN, Doxy100daily, Roxi300BID, Tinii 500mgBID pulses, VitD3-4000IU, Magnascent Iodine,{S.O.D.3/QD[KAL Brand], +Pyruvate 3.75G +SAM-e For Energy support