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Syndicate

Submitted by markmc2000 on Fri, 2009-01-16 01:59.

Hi Folks,

I stumbled across the Marshll Protocall for treating bacterial infectionsⁱ tonight and was wondering if anybody else had considered the marshall protocall before going to the CAPⁱ treatments supported here at the CPNⁱ site. The marshall protocall claims to help CFSⁱ and some other diseasesⁱ similar to the CAP treatments supported at CPN.org

Thanks

Mark

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CPNⁱ off the charts, EBVⁱⁱ, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyriaⁱⁱ, anxiety, depression, doxyⁱⁱ, AMOX, and FLAGYLⁱⁱ since JAN 2009,

Mark- There have numerous

Submitted by Jim K on Fri, 2009-01-16 08:13.

Mark- There have numerous discussions about this here. Do a search for them. The approach here is very, very different from the MPⁱ on a number of fronts. We have a number of people here whose health became much worse on the MP particularly from it's restriction of Vitamin Dⁱ. Someone may point you to the specific links here, but dig into it here on the site first as it's a tiresome one to discuss again.

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CAPⁱ for Cpnⁱ 11/04. Dxⁱ: 25yrs CFSⁱ & FMSⁱ. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDⁱ, Tiniⁱ 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 12mg Iodoral

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And while you are reading,

Submitted by katman on Fri, 2009-01-16 08:19.

And while you are reading, Mark, take your supplementsⁱ - including Vit D and NACⁱ. Glad you are here. Reenie will be along and give you a short, succint, and colorful reason NOT to do the Marshell protocol.

Rica

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3/9 Symptoms returning. Began 5 abxⁱ protocol 5/9 Rifampin 600, Amoxicillinⁱ 1000, Doxyⁱ 200, MWF Azith 250, flagylⁱ 1000. Caffeine pills with AM abxⁱ Began Sept 04 PPMSⁱ EDSSⁱ 6.7 Now good days EDSS 1

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Mark, Stay away from the

Submitted by Reenie on Fri, 2009-01-16 13:54.

Mark,

Stay away from the MPⁱ if you want to preserve whatever health you have at the moment. The theories of the MP are not backed by sound science or anyone other than Marshall and many of us have relapsed, developed rare cancers (most likely due to prolonged D avoidance) and permanent renal damage, all of which are not mentioned on the site.

The Marshall Protocol and other fairy tales

Many say it's much like a cult. I suggest you avoid it. It's subtle and the changes and worsening will take time but there are many people much worse off than before they started. You may have heard me mention that I lost nearly 4 yrs of recovery time... well, that's why.

PS I don't even mention the name of that other site so it doesn't get pulled up during searches. I would suggest removing that direct link to that site for safety reasons. (THANK YOU!!!)

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NACⁱ 2.4g, Zithⁱ 250mg/MWF, minoⁱ 200mg, Tiniⁱ 5day/1g/5 pulses, Valcyte
Supplementsⁱ, CFIDSⁱ/FMSⁱ, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBSⁱ, Sec Addisons

Don't believe everything you think!

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I posted on Amy Proal's

Submitted by biohazard on Fri, 2009-01-16 17:18.

I posted on Amy Proal's site and included a link from lymeMD.blogspot.com. She got a little defensive and left me wondering whats up. Then I've read up and understand why.

Ken Lassesen has a good page on the topic:

http://www.lassesen.com/cfids/MarshallProtocolRisks.htm

Look on that page for "A report of an investigator on Trevor Marshall". The link leads to a eye opening page.

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Doxyⁱ 100mgx2, Azithromycin 250mg MWF, Probiotics: PB8, JarrowDophilus. CFSⁱ since 2003. Last 5+ years lots of the usual research (Depression, Adrenal Fatigue, HPA, Mercury, Candida, Thyroid, etc.). iherb.com $5 coupon code: HAW103

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Mark, I tried the Marshall

Submitted by GoWest on Sat, 2009-01-17 00:07.

Mark, I tried the Marshall Protocol for 15 months or so and got no better, no worse. I think the antibioticsⁱ they recommend are similar to Stratton. On that basis it makes some sense. But the idea of avoiding D does not make sense, except PERHAPS in cases of sarcoidosis. Actually the use of low dose plused antibiotics follows the work of certain rheumatologists who found that rheumatoid arthritis seems to be linked to chronic infection. If you want to read more on that you can go to

http://www.roadbackfoundation.org

But if you just keep reading here you will get the same concept and probably more addressing of side issues such as supplementsⁱ. I am no expert on cpnⁱ, but I have been around the block on pretty much everything else. I have mycoplasma, cpn, HHV6, EBVⁱ and Lyme disease. My original diagnosis was chronic fatigue syndromeⁱ. If you google my name several articles of medical conferences will turn up, but don't bother.

Paula Carnes

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Paula Carnes

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Thanks for the replys.

Submitted by markmc2000 on Sat, 2009-01-17 00:37.

Thanks for the replys. Kinda dropping the Marshall protocall based on what I have heard so far. I think I'm on the right path with the guidance from the doctor I have chosen.

The support here really makes a difference. Good to have a place to communicate others in the same pickle as me! Everybody's illness is so different but great to share ideas.

Thanks

Mark

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CPNⁱ off the charts, EBVⁱ, Chronic fatigue 20+ yrs, , tinittus, Orthostatic intolerance, adrenal fatigue, excitotoxicty, porphyriaⁱ, anxiety, depression, doxyⁱ, AMOX, and FLAGYLⁱ since JAN 2009,

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Speaking as a medical

Submitted by D W on Sat, 2009-01-17 13:55.

Speaking as a medical microbiologist I'd be very wary of long-term low dose antibiotic monotherapy: even worse is long-term, low dose intermittent monotherapy. The induction of resistance is a real risk. Tetracycline resistance to Chlamydia suis - a distant relative if C. pneumoniae has been induced in swine in a production facility in the US. [Growth and development of tetracycline-resistant Chlamydia suis. Lenart J, Andersen AA, Rockey DD. Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 2001 Aug;45(8):2198-203.]

Two antibioticsⁱ acting in the same biochemical chain effectively prevent the emergence of resistance. To use an analogy, consider the high-jump. Many athletes can clear 6 feet. However, none can clear 12 feet. (The world record, held by Janvier Sotomayer, is an astonishing 8.04 feet.)

Unless a nitroimidazole (metronidazoleⁱ or tinidazole) is added to bacterial protein synthesis inhibitors (BPSIs), therapy will freeze rather than kill the organism: when treatment is withdrawn, the organism reactivates. (BPSIs force the organism into an anaerobic state, where they are susceptible to nitoimidazoles, which caused fatal breaks in the DNA: these breaks cannot be repaired because the 15 or so proteins needed cannot be made because of the presence of the BPSIs. Crafty, eh? So, the BPSIs have two invaluable functions. This revolutionary idea was discovered by Chuck Strattonⁱ at Vanderbilt. I'm eternally gateful: without this discovery Sarah would not now be sitting at her drawing-board doing a pen-and-ink drawing of The Resting Hermes of Lyssipos.

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D W - [Myalgia and hypertensionⁱ (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazoleⁱ. No medication now; just supplementsⁱ and IR sauna. Morning BP typically 105/75]

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Two of them actually, one

Submitted by Sarah on Sat, 2009-01-17 14:23.

Two of them actually, one is the life model in DW's novel, rear view, the other is an interpretation of him as the resting Hermes. Both are watching each other. Surreal?

Actually, T Marshall wouldn't like it because the model has a bit of a suntan...............Sarah

An Itinerary in Light and Shadow

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Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSⁱ in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent. Still improving and no relapses since starting. EDSSⁱ was 7, but now it is not much at all.

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Holy Smokes! By being on

Submitted by Miying Meng on Sat, 2009-01-17 15:33.

Holy Smokes! By being on the MPⁱ for almost 4 years I set up a bloody factory for Cpnⁱ. Don't go there Mark! I am worse off than before the MP. But thank God & the folks here. Now I know I am making progress although I have a much bigger battle now. It has taken me 4-5 months to successfully tolerate the supplementsⁱ. Then from Sept. until now to barely tolerate the first two antibioticsⁱ on the Wheldon protocol. I don't know when I will be able to do my first pulse. So you see ... you do not want to do the same mistake I made. If only I knew then what I know now. I would probably be well and functioning above a house bound victim of a very nasty parasite. I can't wait for the next 4 years as I am set free!

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2002:CFSⁱ. 2008:CPNⁱ - CAPⁱ/5 pulses. 2010: BB - Restart CAP: 3 pulse. 400Doxy/250Zith-MWF. Lauricidin/Yaeyama/supplementsⁱ recommended/firⁱ sauna/2,000 IU vit D. Stop charcoal/allergy. 2010: HighBP/Benicar, IBSⁱ.

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Actually, T Marshall

Submitted by Reenie on Sat, 2009-01-17 16:32.

Actually, T Marshall wouldn't like it because the model has a bit of a suntan...............Sarah
And not only can this lady paint and draw but she has wit. Good one Sarah! I got a real chuckle out of that!

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NACⁱ 2.4g, Zithⁱ 250mg/MWF, minoⁱ 200mg, Tiniⁱ 5day/1g/5 pulses, Valcyte
Supplementsⁱ, CFIDSⁱ/FMSⁱ, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBSⁱ, Sec Addisons

Don't believe everything you think!

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DW probably isn't here now.

Submitted by Miying Meng on Sat, 2009-01-17 18:17.

DW probably isn't here now. But more than likely someone else can answer my question. So many really smart folks in here.

After re-reading DW post above: "unless a nitroimidazole is added to bacterial protein synthesis inhibitors, therapy will freeze rather than kill the organism". Geez... does that mean cryptic forms being made. I am wondering how urgent then is it to do my first pulse? I don't want to keep freezing the suckers until I have so many in the cryptic form it about kills me to do my first pulse. I admit I am scared anyway of that first pulse.

Then the second thing. I want to share ... DW went on to say, "when treatment is withdrawn, the organism reactivates" Thought I would mention to all of you. That seems to be exactly my experience ... when I stopped taking minocycline Nov 2007 so was totally off antibioticsⁱ for the first time since 2004. I started getting sicker and sicker. What I now know as secondary porphyriaⁱ was horrible for me. I think it was around Jan/Feb 2008 that Reenie suggested I try Emergen-C and it kept me sane until I finally came here around April 2008 & started NACⁱ, etc. Looking back I can say I have improved quite a lot since those dark days for me. I literally could not stand the natural light exposure.

OK then. Can someone please give me some input on my question above? Did you all pace your first pulse to avoid making too many cryptic forms? TIA MM

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MM - I went on doxyi and

Submitted by MacKintosh on Sat, 2009-01-17 18:31.

MM - I went on doxyⁱ and azith on 06 Oct 2005. I did my first flagylⁱ pulse, a full dose for five days straight, starting 25 Nov 2005, seven weeks later. My only adverse effects were a strong need to sleep/rest and fluctuating temperature, as far as I can recall. (I was on vacation from work, so I just slept whenever I felt the need.)

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The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

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You should respect rather

Submitted by hdwhit on Sat, 2009-01-17 19:32.

You should respect rather than fear the pulse.

If you have lots of bacteria, the die-off caused by the metronidazoleⁱ can be unpleasant. Re-read the Handbook for the steps to take to deal with die-off and follow them. If you do, your first pulse will be memorable, but not terrifying. I was cavalier about the charcoal in particular and ended up with shortness of breath bad enough it sent me to the emergency room. Lesson learned. I've been very careful to follow the protocol since and haven't had a significant problem.

You can do this.

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CAPⁱ for M.S. 8/2007 - 3/2009. Twentieth pulse metronidazoleⁱ + INHⁱ completed 3/12/2009. Intermittent treatment thereafter until 8/7/2009.

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OK MacK & hdwhit thanks for

Submitted by Miying Meng on Sat, 2009-01-17 20:36.

OK MacK & hdwhit thanks for sharing & the encouragement. Guess the bottom line must be that I won't know how I will do until the dirty deed is done. But the idea that I am creating more cryptic forms without the nitroimidazole agent... I will be using Tiniⁱ ... just sent me into a momentary panic. Of course, I'll do what I need to do. I just want to time it right for me so I don't make it worse then it has to be. Just trying to keep things tolerable yet get the job done. Just so ya know, I do faithfully use moppers daily & have read the handbook a few times.

Maybe in DW's post saying "freeze" Cpn isn't even saying that it becomes "cryptic". That really is something I wanted to find out though. Does anyone know? TIA MM

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Hi MM, I feel your fear

Submitted by Reenie on Sat, 2009-01-17 22:22.

Hi MM,

I feel your fear right thru the pc!

Yes, I do believe David is using the word freeze for what happens when RBs "freeze" from reproduction and convert to cryptic. That would make sense in our understanding of this bacteria and how when we stop the bacteriostatics without the bactericidal abxⁱ, ie, Flagylⁱ or Tindamax.

You will be FINE. Trust the process. You are preparing yourself just fine and you are already killing off bacteria in the cells and also ones that haven't yet been able to reproduce.

I would suspect that although you aren't doing pulses yet, some cryptics are probably getting killed off with the increase in D due to apoptosis (organized cell deathⁱ) and even thru the abxⁱ you are using because when the RBs die, they take infected cells that probably also contain some cryptic with them. (someone please correct me if I'm mistaken)

So now for the pulsing part...

My first pulse was uneventful. I did one day of tiniⁱ, 500 mg BIDⁱ.

I waited a month and did the second pulse. It was quite memorable and it nearly scared me into quitting CAPⁱ but I hung in there. I did 2 days, 500 mg BIDⁱ. It took 6 weeks until I began to feel well enough (and brave enough) to pulse again but I was able to do the full 5 day pulse and have been able to tolerate a full pulse ever since, once a month. (and to think I nearly quit!)

I would say, knowing you, knowing what you've been thru and where you are today, you could prob tolerate at least doing what I did for my first 2 pulses. If you wanted to dip your feet in slower, just do one pill a day, but if nothing much happens you will get braver and will add more.

BTW, I'm not pulsing now (skipped Jan pulse) as I'm waiting to see if the Valcyte kicks in and I'm getting a bit concerned by the length between my last and next pulse too.

___________________________________________________________

NACⁱ 2.4g, Zithⁱ 250mg/MWF, minoⁱ 200mg, Tiniⁱ 5day/1g/5 pulses, Valcyte
Supplementsⁱ, CFIDSⁱ/FMSⁱ, Hashimoto's, Psoriasis, PA, IBSⁱ, Sec Addisons

Don't believe everything you think!

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DW,Thanks for the

Submitted by markmc2000 on Sat, 2009-01-17 22:34.

DW,

Thanks for the scientific answer. Sounds like you have been on the abxⁱ treatment yourself for ahile then quit? May I ask how long you were on the abxⁱ then quit? Can anybody give examples of people here that have been on the CAPⁱ treament for years then has successfully been off for years without adverse side effects?

thanks,

Mark

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Fear grows when you don't

Submitted by Miying Meng on Sat, 2009-01-17 23:06.

Fear grows when you don't understand. Even the bravest people fear but do the job anyway. I am not ashamed of fear. It is only the coward turns away because of fear. I vow I will get the job done. There was never a question that I will. Admitting fear and conquering it makes you stronger. If I express fear it is to get the devil out in the open. No hiding!

Thanks for helping me to understand Reenie. You explain things so well. You really do have a gift for it. OK. Now I will begin planning for my first pulse. Since I just switched to Doxyⁱ I think I need to wait a bit though. Couple weeks or so to test it out should do it I am thinking. After all I have only been on the full doses of the first two abxⁱ for a couple weeks.

You do have a curious situation with the balance of knowing what the Valcyte is going to do and the pulses. Whether you miss a pulse or not should not be a biggie I would think. Meaning I have read some skip them to allow their liver to recoop. Something I may need to do as mine is contankerous at times. Hope the Valcyte will be good to & for you.

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Mark, David's story is in

Submitted by katman on Sat, 2009-01-17 23:06.

Mark, David's story is in the patient's stories. He is the first hytensive to drop to normal - remarkable. But of course, remarkable is what we do here every day. Rica