CFS: Wheldon Protocol and Marshall Protocol....polar opposites?

Greetings! :-)

I started the Wheldon Protocol last week...and am thrilled to have found out about it, to have found this site, and to have a doctor who let me try the protocol.

My question relates to the nutritional and supplement schedules and tips. If I've read things correctly, there is a big emphasis on things like Vitamin Di, Fish and Flax oils, Vitamin B complex, and seafood (among other things....and my list above is not meant to suggest that the protocol only recommends these food / supplement items).

Then I came across the Marshall Protocol....and it basically (exaggerating here for dramatic effect) says that all of the above are grown by the devil and that consuming any of them (or even going outdoors for that matter) will not only prevent relief of fatigue and other CFSi symptom, but will aggravate them and is even the cause of the symptoms (hence a primary cause of CFS).

I'm not one to panic....but emabarking on either protocol seems to be an "all or nothing" bet if one compares the two protocolsi.....to the extent that if you choose one....and you're wrong.....you will not only do no good, but you will basically advance the symptoms and the underlying CFS.

Can you help with any information regarding these concerns? Anything from science, to theory, to wild guesses, to personal anecdotes from people who have done both protocols (is there anyone who has?).....would be greatly appreciated.

And just to clarify....I'm "still" on Wheldon (one week in!) and am committed to staying the course with it.

 

CHEERS!

D

I'm not sure if they are comparable. My wife had very aggressive fast-moving MSi and, searching for anything that would help, I found Drs Stratton and Mitchell's patent on the Internet. This is worthwhile reading, and very detailed. My wife responded well and, finding that the evidence for a Chlamydia pneumoniae input into MS was in the medical literature but not well collated, I put my thoughts on the Internet so that the information would be available to others. Chuck Strattoni has been very helpful, and very generous with his insights. I suppose I have the advantage of being medically qualified with experience in both the neurosciences and medical microbiology. My webpages have MS as the priority, but people with ME and other 'cryptogenic' disorders have been helped. Trevor Marshall's system was, I believe, designed to treat sarcoidosis, where Vitamin Di can be an issue. I haven't studied it. You'll notice that this website is very democratic; this is how it should be. The idea of treating MS with antibioticsi, mitochondrial support and antioxidant">i supplementation is quite novel, and I'm sure there will be a lot of new insights with experience. All medicine rests on risk-cost / benefit analyses, and this is no exception. D W - [Myalgia and hypertension">i (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now; just supplementsi and IR sauna. Morning BP typically 105/75]
D W - [Myalgia and hypertension">i (typically 155/95.) Began (2003) taking doxycycline and macrolide and later adding metronidazolei. No medication now. Morning BP typically 110/75]

 There has already been a number of discussions on this. Do a search and look through the threads.

CAPi for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFSi & FMSi- Currently: 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, Tinii pulses.

 

CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral

Hey, there! We used to discuss the differences between the two a lot, but this has fallen away over time. If you accept cpni is the 'cause' or co-cause of your disease, then you kind of have to accept the science that goes with it. For instance, Vitamin Di is necessary to help kill the bacteria, and, if you look at any MSi literature, it's clear the incidence of countries with less sun exposure correlates to increased incidence of MS. Sun = Vitamin D. And Vitamin D made a huge splash a couple of weeks ago as a definite 'protector' against MS. I'd have to go back and search 'Marshall Protocol' to give you more specifics, but I'm stealing these few minutes, as it is. More to the point, you started. So, how are you feeling now?

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Welcome D. (I assume you are working towards being untired Wink)

Once you find the threads regarding the Marshall Protocol, if you have some comments you can make them there and the thread will be pushed back up to the surface and there could be some discussion or not. 

Anyway, just to say the archives of this site are immense.  And I am amazed at what I am learning as I follow may way to them via a multiplicity of routes.  I am finding reading from the end (which is actually the beginning of this site) very engrosing.  So much that I am going to get serious in limiting my online timeSmile since I now have more energy to do some of those tasks that have been put off for so..... long.   Yes I have been tired for so..... long.

It is helpful, when you post to have a signature such as mine below here.  It give folks a postage stamp picture of what you are dealing with for Dxi (diagnosis) or Sxi (symptoms) and Where you are in gearing up to start the protocol or where you are in advancing un the protocol.  Specifics about your  Rx abxs(antibiotics)(generally two different abxi taken at the same time) and the current dosages and NACi (n-acytl-cysteine) a very important supplement with anti-chlamydial properties, and in time, your pulsing on the antimicrobial, generally either metronidazolei (Flagyl) or tinidazole (Tinactini).

You will surely figure this all out. perhaps more easily than I did.  My brain fog was so great that I was very overwhelmed at first by the vastness of the site and how to find what I needed.  Anyway to make a signature find your name on the left side of the screen.  Locate my account and click it. Next click on the tab at the top of the page that comes up.  Edit.  Lots of choices her if you are up to it.  Scroll down to the bottom of the page there is a box there.  Do an abbreviated summary as stated above.  Look at other folks info what do you think is important to give folks enough info to give you good feedback to your questions.  That is the point of the signature.

I like to say I have had unrelenting fatigue that is continuing to improve and find some way eveyday to see that small step of progess towards the goal, guess CFSi will do as it is short.

Again Welcome.  Folks here are friendly and helpful.  I like the term that     Jim K used somewhere here "educated patients".

Hope this has been somewhat helpful.    Louise 

Louise, USA, Northern New England. CPni, Bb(Borrelia B., Lyme,) CFS.     Started CAPi 6/24/07 Doxy400, NAC1200.  Currently 9/24/07, Doxy 200 mg, NAC 1800 mg. 

  • CAPi(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFSi<
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDNi 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support
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Untired, welcome to our family...

Louise & others have given you some great suggestions.

follow the protocol documents carefully & ask questions whenever you need.  there is alot of great support from this site, you have come to the right place.

Blessings

Ruth

CFIDSi/ME 25yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, Cpni, (insomnia - melatonin">i, GABA, tarazadone, temazepam, novocyclopine, allergy formula, 2 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, 9-30-07 2nd pulse 1 X 250 mg Metroi<

CFIDSi/ME, FMSi, MCS, IBSi, EBVi, CMV, Cpni, H1, chronic insomnia, Chronic Lyme, HME, Babesia, Natural HRT-menopause, NAC 2.4 gm,Full CAP 6-2-07, all supplementsi+Iodorol, Inositol-depression, ultra Chitosan, L lysine Pulse#27 04-19-10 1gm Flagyli/day-5 days<

I'm doing the MPi. There's actually a lot of similarities.

The Marshall Protocol is a curative treatment for diseasesi having a TH1 type immunei response. Th1 inflammationi is caused by a microbiota (families of inter-dependant pathogens) of intracellulari bacteria. Patients having been diagnosed with one or more of a wide range of diseases have been successfully treated using this protocol. It works by enabling the immune system to destroy the intracellular bacteria that are thought to be the root cause of the illness.

An ARB (angiotensin II receptor blocker) medication, Benicar ®, is taken, and sunlight, bright lights and foods and supplementsi with vitamin Di are diligently avoided. This enables the body’s immune system, with the help of small doses of antibioticsi, to destroy the intracellular bacteria. It can take approximately one to three years to destroy all the bacteria.

"The problem with dealing with chronic disease is that one cannot do a short trial, for, say, 2 years, and declare success. Success is only achieved if the patient returns to a normal lifestyle and stays alive. The MP is the first to have achieved this. Even though at this point we have only 6 years of history behind us, we have a model of the disease processes down to the level of the molecular biology. The course of recovery follows the model, which does not predict relapse. The early adopters are not just in remission, but fully recovered, and there is no clinical expectation of relapse, either." - Dr. Trevor Marshall

Brad, DXi: ALS 2/06. EBVi. Lyme tests negative twice... 14hrsInBed/Day. 
1/7/08 WheldonCAP started Suppliments& 1200mg NACi<
1/21/08 1xWk. Zithi< 125mg 63mg

I happen to think the denial of Vitamin Di makes the two protocolsi DRAMATICALLY different and can't imagine doing this programme without taking large doses of D. As a matter of fact, I think my extreme lack of D is what initially caused the cpni infection to reach its 'tipping point' with me.

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.  Mohandas Gandhi

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Brad you might want to read this to get a handle on the research we have discovered regarding vitamin Di.

http://www.cpnhelp.org/the_vitamin_d_page<

Michele (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse.

MPi scared me cuz the idea of taking the blood pressure med and taking out all Vit D food & sun seemed like too much.  That's a lot of healthy food to remove and even if I feel better in the sun because it is a hormone/steroid rather than vitamin, i'd rather feel better any way I can. They seem to think Vit D actually causes inflammationi which i would hate to do to myself but i havent found any other info to confirm it so i just take it and hope for the best.

31 year old woman in Oregon. Living w/Sjogren's, peripheral neuropathy & unexplained dizziness since 6/2006. On CAPi since summer 2007 & Infrared TX. Doxyi 2X a day daily 100mg each, Zithi 250mg 3X a week, Flagyli every 3 weeks for 5 days &

31 year old woman in Oregon. Living w/Sjogren's, peripheral neuropathy & unexplained dizziness since 6/2006. On CAPi since summer 2007 & Infrared TX. Doxyi 2X a day daily 100mg each, Zithi 250mg 3X a week, Flagyli every 3 weeks for 5 days &

MPi doesn't eliminate D from your body. Some Pathogens use/convert excess quantitys in an immunei supresessant "camouflage" mechanism. We monitor D via blood testing. When my D dropped, my herx increased... i now can used less ABXi as my own immune response increased.

also - The Importance of Reducing 25-D<

Brad, DXi: ALS 2/06. EBVi. Lyme tests negative twice... 14hrsInBed/Day. 
1/7/08 WheldonCAP started Suppliments& 1200mg NACi<
1/21/08 1xWk. Zithi< 125mg 63mg

Brad, I am still alive and living a comparatively normal life, whilst all the while taking 4000 iu daily of D3.  I doubt if you will be able to persuade anyone here that they are harming themselves by doing this, but well done for trying..........Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow...........Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still slowly improving and no exacerbation since starting. EDSSi was 7, now 2, less on a good day.
Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.
Brad, I'm the least science-minded person on the planet, so forgive me for asking. What is an immunei suppressant camouflage mechanism? It's been a long time since I looked at the Marshall protocol. (I did look hard at it before deciding to do David Wheldoni's regimen, but saw too many things I couldn't agree with, just can't recall all of it anymore.) >The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.  Mohandas Gandhi

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

According to MPi:

The 25-D seems to be the most critical factor as to whether the immunei system is able to start working. Any level of 25-D above about 20ng/ml is likely to be acting as an immunosuppressant, with an action very similar to that of corticosteroids."

Dr. Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.

Avoiding all forms of ingested vitamin Di will decrease the amount of vitamin D stored in fatty tissues. This is desirable because vitamin D is converted to 25-D and 25-D is immunosupressive. It acts on the steroid receptors and that hinders the immune system from killing pathogens, just as the corticosteroids do.

"Be really careful to get your 25-D down as low as possible, I can't stress this factor too much. The lower the better. Give your body's metabolism a chance to do its job again." ..Trevor..

Since 25-D has no function but to enable 1,25-D to be produced, if you have enough 1,25-D, then you do not need any 25-D. See You do not need to ingest Vitamin D to be healthy<

Brad, DXi: ALS 2/06. EBVi. Lyme tests negative twice... 14hrsInBed/Day. 
1/7/08 WheldonCAP started Suppliments& 1200mg NACi<
1/21/08 1xWk. Zithi< 125mg 63mg

Sarah,

I hope to live so long! i'm 2 yrs into ALS : (

I came to learn, not convert. Just saw the thread, & decided to share info. knowledge empowers all. Both protocolsi are awesome, but not interchangeable. They are designed to eradicate two entirely different beasts!

I'm not convinced i'm infected w/ the " D converting variety" MP targets. My 25 D was way too high from supplementing, but 1,25 D was only a lil high. Inconclusive! Did your D ratio test say you were infected by the D converting variety as well as shape-shifting Cpni?

Brad, DXi: ALS 2/06. EBVi. Lyme tests negative twice... 14hrsInBed/Day. 
1/7/08 WheldonCAP started Suppliments& 1200mg NACi<
1/21/08 1xWk. Zithi< 125mg 63mg

Love the term 'shape-shifting cpni'!

Brad, after the brutal 'welcome' I received elsewhere when discussing cpn, trust me, no one will treat you the same way here.  We are all about learning. (I doubt anyone here is convertible Wink, anyway.  Shouldn't that be convertable, when you think about it?)

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.  Mohandas Gandhi

The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi

Brad- I don't have the references handy, but TM's conclusions that "25-D is immunosuppressive" is not agreed with by many experts in the field. The researchers whose studies he refers to on this say that these are erroneous conclusions about their work. It has seemed to me to be a case of reading into research conclusions that already match one's bias. This is merely impressionistic at this point, as I dont' have the research handy, but may stimulate a look at where TM is drawing his conclusions from. 

CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi, 500mg MWF Azith, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Cytotec 100mg, Plaquenil 100mg, Magnascent Iodine 12 drps/day, T4 & T3

 

CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral

Brad- An update to a very thorough scientific critique can be found at http://stuff.mit.edu/people/london/universe.htm<

Anyone considering MPi should read this, among other critiques:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/032528.html<

 

CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi, 500mg MWF Azith, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Cytotec 100mg, Plaquenil 100mg, Magnascent Iodine 12 drps/day, T4 & T3

 

CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral

Thanks for posting that Jim. I remember Sarah telling us the Trevor Marshall was not a medical doctor, but I could not find the reference.   It is encouraging to all of us that we at least have medical doctors behind the protocol and the ability to discuss other treatments apart from the CAPi without being censored or banned.

Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAP 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse.

Brad, I sincerely hope you continue to do well, but for the moment you appear to be too much under the TM spell, you quote verbatim from him too much and he relies too much on computer models, where only one small error sends the whole model completely askew.
  
It is my personal view that clinical microbiologists like Charles Strattoni and my husband, David Wheldoni, know far more about microbiology than computer engineers do.  They know that if you take too small a dose of a suitable antibiotic for your pathogen(s) they will very quickly develop resistance to it.  They have both done hands on research into this, not relied upon a computer model.  Knowledge does empower all, but only if used correctly.
  
I have never had my D levels tested, so I don't know what they are.  I took to supplementing at this level before I started on antibioticsi, and I didn't notice any immunosuppressive qualities because it made no difference to my rapidly deteriorating secondary progressive multiple sclerosis.  When I later was given a pack of 100mg doxycycline, to take two a day though, things were different.  Three weeks later I started roxithromycin and I have continued to improve.  I was lucky because my disease was so active at the time and my brain was full of Cpni.  I hit it full on.  With other people it will take longer, and if someone doesn't have a chronic Cpn infection or something else like lyme disease it won't work and I'm afraid I can say no more......Sarah
  
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow...........Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still slowly improving and no exacerbation since starting. EDSSi was 7, now 2, less on a good day.
Completed Stratton/Wheldon regime for aggressive secondary progressive MSi in June 2007, after four years, three of which intermittent.   Still improving bit by bit and no relapses since finishing treatment.
i plead brain-fog ; )

Brad, DXi: ALS 2/06. EBVi. Lyme tests negative twice... 14hrsInBed/Day. 
1/7/08 WheldonCAP started Suppliments& 1200mg NACi<
1/21/08 1xWk. Zithi< 125mg 63mg

I have to cut&paste, I have LIMITED USE of hands.

Jim K, Sarah: U can't argue w/ Sucess , MP heal lots of people by their own testimony. "under spell" is condescending, Plz ... I respected your protocol, views. I... am not prejudiced, are you? I'm here, have you honestly studied MP?

Re: 'Medical Doc. behind this protocol" - Most learned Doctors are against both CAPi's, Yes?

I' m done w/ this topic. Pfffft!

Brad, DXi: ALS 2/06. EBVi. Lyme tests negative twice... 14hrsInBed/Day. 
1/7/08 WheldonCAP started Suppliments& 1200mg NACi<
1/21/08 1xWk. Zithi< 125mg 63mg

Brad, do you by any chance have Cpni? I ask because whilst many here have considered the MPi, no one has actually tried it full on (I don't think). It would be nice to be able to compare the two protocolsi on the one organism.

I'd love to know how someone with Cpn would do on the MP as opposed to the CAPi. I tried to do the MP myself but couldn't stand the way benicar made me feel (very very weak and lethargic).

garcia.

CFSi since 01. Infected CPn 01-06. Started CAP 03-07.
Currently: Azith+Doxyi. 4 Pulses done. Welchol 4xday. Sauna every other day. D 2,500IU

Hunter: Don't think - experiment

Brad - First of all welcome!

Sorry these post got so - uhmmm - spirited in this thread.  There are very wonderful people on this site passionately fighting some nasty diseasesi who have some definite opinions based on a lot of research and experience.  That being said, this is usually a place where you can openly share and discuss information, receive good ideas, tips and information and support.  Hope you will stick around!  

I don't know too much about the Marshall protocol so I can't comment on that but I am open to learning about anything.  My husband has a disease just as heinous as yours and quiet frankly if he could lick the skin on exotic frogs in the amazon to get better - we would be on the next plane down Smile

Good for you researching and trying as many things as you can! 

In researching my husbands illness, it seems that ALS is mentioned so many times in the same bucket as MS, etc... and is linked to a number of bacteria and virus as well as all manner of other potential smoking guns.  It's hard to know which way to go?  Sometimes for me it's overwhelming - the possibilities and things to try! 

Good Luck with your various treatments and Hope 2008 brings good things your way!

  Daisy-Caregiver- Balo's Concentric Sclerosis.  CAPi 5/10/07. Doxyi 200 mg, Minoi 100 BIDi 9-1, Azi 375QD  Roxyi 300 BIDi 11-5, Rifampin 600mg QD 10-15, Bactrim DS BID 11-3, Novantrone, Rescue Prednisone

Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  Husband died from Acute Myelogenous Leukemia Secondary to the Infusion of Novantrone.  Ie - the treatment with the conventional MSi drugs killed him.

Daisy on her own CAP 11/2012. 

With Marshall heavily censoring his website's forums, it's hard to know what the real success rate of his protocol is. But it's certainly something that can be argued with.

I have spoken to a few people who are on MPi for my condition. Results were completely mixed. No clear answers. Some stopped because it made them so sick, others got better to varying degrees, no one made full recovery but they weren't done either. It was all over the board. But there was some Sjogrens patients to ask, here they are nonexistant other than me and one other person. I'm not even completely certain of what I am treating anymore.

 

31 year old woman in Oregon. Living w/Sjogren's, peripheral neuropathy & unexplained dizziness since 6/2006. On CAPi since summer 2007 & Infrared TX. Doxyi 2X a day daily 100mg each, Zithi 250mg 3X a week, Flagyli every 3 weeks for 5 days &

31 year old woman in Oregon. Living w/Sjogren's, peripheral neuropathy & unexplained dizziness since 6/2006. On CAPi since summer 2007 & Infrared TX. Doxyi 2X a day daily 100mg each, Zithi 250mg 3X a week, Flagyli every 3 weeks for 5 days &

Thanks Jim K! Most enlightening!

Brad, DXi: ALS 2/06. EBVi. Lyme tests negative twice... 14hrsInBed/Day. 
1/7/08 WheldonCAP started Suppliments& 1200mg NACi<
1/21/08 1xWk. Zithi< 125mg 63mg

Hi Brad W,

welcome to our site.  I am sorry to hear you have ALS, from what I know (which is limited) it is a nasty disease that eventually reduces a persons body to a useless shell.

Daisy is right, what way to turn, so much information.  She is medically knowledgable & a caregiver for her spouse.  I think she has been combining the WP with some other drugs as his disease was fast progressing.  A pullout all of the stops scenario.

If you have read her posts you will get lots of info.  Sarah's husband is Dr. Wheldon who with the help of Dr. Stratton & Jim K, Michelle & others actually spear headed this site.  That she is sensitive to the protocol widely practiced here is understandable.

Without this site, many, most assuredly, would be dead now.

For me, I am improving from a nasty downward spiral I was on.  This only 7 months in to what I suspect will be about a 2 yr adventure.  The CPni is a stealth bacteria, to be taken very seriously.  The scary thing is that a huge percentage of people my age have already been exposed to it.  I believe my initial bout with it was when I had double pneumonia - I was 19.

I take 9000 IU vitamin Di at the moment.  It's anti cancer boast more recently make it worthwhile for us.

Anyway, our site is the most AWESOME site because we speak pretty freely about what we are doing, experiencing.  It is a great source of support for many of us, without it, most doctors would be quite in the dark about this insidious bacteria.  It is wreaking havoc in our populations, what you can't see, can kill you.

No one here will take a large strip off of you. I have been kicked off another site just for telling someone what I was doing with the support of my doctor!

Blessings for your journey to wellness.

Peace

CFIDSi/ME 25yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, Cpn, (insomnia - melatonin">i, GABA, tarazadone, triazolam, novocyclopine, allergy formula, 3 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, 1-3-08 5th pulse 1 X 375 mg 4day

CFIDSi/ME, FMSi, MCS, IBSi, EBVi, CMV, Cpni, H1, chronic insomnia, Chronic Lyme, HME, Babesia, Natural HRT-menopause, NAC 2.4 gm,Full CAP 6-2-07, all supplementsi+Iodorol, Inositol-depression, ultra Chitosan, L lysine Pulse#27 04-19-10 1gm Flagyli/day-5 days<

There is quite a bit of misunderstanding here about what the Marshall Protocol is actually doing. One of the defining tests they use to see who would benefit from the protocol is the ratio of 25(OH)D3 to 1,25(OH)2D3, a ratio greatly favoring 1,25 suggest rapid conversion. This has been the case with a majority (though not all) of Sarcoidosis patients, its also been demonstrated to occur in large numbers of Rheumatoid Arthritis patients as well. What that means for them is there is no way to keep these levels consistent, and if they are high enough, they will not tolerate supplemental D at all, or not for very long due to rapid conversion. The bacteria involved in most cases of Sarcoidosis seem to have picked up this gene/trick for making the conversion enzyme, and the people that are going to get the most dramatic benefit from Benicar are those which have bacteria that picked up the gene to accelerate conversion (and that accelerates production of D in the skin in Sarcoidosis). Its not that they don't use D - they use the receptors for it quite a bit. Because these people can not keep a consistent ratio without it quickly converting to 1,25(OH)2D3, they replaced D entirely with a drug, thats one of the functions of the Benicar as they use it. Benicar is a VDR agonist[vitamin Di receptor agonist] (with slightly different properties from D in terms of affinities and how hard it activates the various receptors it hits), once benicar gets above a certain level, its essentially replacing both forms of D in the body, and in the immunei system some parts of it are going to be very active because of it. For someone with too rapid of a conversion that is suffering AI problems because of it, they start to feel a lot better on the Benicar. The reasons they are so adamantly against taking D and the diet restrictions are in place is that ingested D, or D from prolonged sunlight exposure kicks the drug out, and several hormones swing rapidly the other way as well as losing some of the blockade against inflammationi that benicar at high dose provides. The things to keep in mind, benicar isn't D, its a drug which replaces both forms of D - and helps bring those hormones it effects and others back into a fixed state. It does not behave quite the same way as either of the two D's across all of the receptors, but it does activate the VDR fairly strongly, but not so much its locked hard on, its controllable. Both forms of D have pronounced effects on things like thyroid hormones, those who experience the rapid conversion literally go through the full range of hypo to hyperthyroid during as it converts. Over about 5 hours for them. You aren't going to feel good during this, its not the thyroid hormones changing as much as it is both forms of D effect this and each form differently. With a drug like benicar in place, they don't get these storms, which make a lot of folks on it feel a lot better right away. As do some of the anti inflammatory properties. The benicar itself is modulating the immune system, as I said before, its not D, its a drug to replace it with some similar properties, it hits most of the same things, but its not going to have the same immune system effects across the board. Some are the same, some aren't, its a pretty radical solution in many ways, but the majority of those it was developed for (Sarcoidosis) couldn't tolerate D without getting sick from it. Other bacteria seem to be able to pick up the trait, and irregardless of what the AI disease is called, if the bacteria have it, a fair number of those people are going to be quite sensitive to it & experience a range of hypervitaminosis-D symptoms because of it. I'm one of those, I have neurosarcoidosis, which is a somewhat between having MS & Lupus in what it does. Any amount of D was problematic for me. A few days of 1000IU of D for me is a life threatening proposition. Even very small amounts were problematic. Something as benign as a plate of pasta with white sauce was enough to keep me awake all night, jittery, insomniac from the thyroid effects of rapid conversion alone, not to mention the calcium flare that would come with it. I'm on the far end of the scale as far as being sensitive to it. When I first became sick I wasn't as sensitive to it, over time I became much more so. The neurosarcoidosis symptoms became a lot worse as that happened. Even a half hour trip in the sun was enough that I would notice it. I would initially feel better in the sun, and who thinks of the sun as being problematic? 5-6 hours later I would start to feel lousy. It was not an intuitive connection, even with a high degree of sensitivity. Even with the food issues, it was not intuitive because of the initial period of feeling better (its a steroid), and the delay in feeling poorly from it. Its the degree of sensitivity that is an issue here. That most there have that high level of sensitivity & rapid conversion doesn't mean someone without the high degree of sensitivity would not benefit from the treatment, the MP study site uses it mostly as a screening tool to pick those more likely to benefit based on their current understanding & theory which includes a high degree of VDR activation being needed to clear some of these infectionsi to bypass their defenses (like capnine). If these truly are persistent bacterial infections and they are vulnerable to the antibioticsi and the way the immune system function is being altered, those infections should clear as well with it. If the species aren't vulnerable, have to try something else. A protocol like CPNi is using other things to modulate the immune system, high dose D if you can tolerate it which does have some steroidal effects even in its D3 form, NACi (which does have an effect on slowing down the conversion of D, and some evidence it may reduce production in the skin, as well as several other interesting properties), high doses of C...etc.. Much higher doses of antibiotics. It makes sense to me why the doses of antibiotics are very different, but still arriving at many of the same end points because of that. The other reason they are so adamant against supplementsi is because they are trying to get a treatment FDA approved that is somewhat complex. The fewer things at issue, the less chemicals used, the fewer problems interpreting the data. The Marshall Protocol is still an experimental treatment, it was phase II for several of the things it was being tried for the last I looked. They do not know every interaction that can occur, nor how supplementsi would effect immune system function on it as the treatment very radically changes immune system function. Anyone who can get a copy of the full protocol & find a doctor willing can use it, but the message board itself is for the trial & is largely limited to that topic. They try to ensure compliance because thats what the requirements are for running a trial. Its not a democracy on the site, its a treatment study. I hope that clears up some misunderstandings. I've seen this discussion here several times, but never seen anyone take the time to really answer the questions that were asked.

Well, I'm highly in favor of everyone being free to choose whatever treatment they like, and to run a message board however they like. I will freely confess that I polemicized against the MPi in years past, but I no longer have a polemical atom left in my body. I am devoutly objective - be it a virtue or maybe just a state of neurometabolism - and a very happy scientific robot. I will just point out that some of the things you mention are what I, personally, would call speculative:

The bacteria involved in most cases of Sarcoidosis seem to have picked up this gene/trick [...]

once benicar gets above a certain level, its essentially replacing both forms of D in the body [...] [not everyone seems to be confident in in silico determinations; I'm far from expert on the subject but see these several posts and comment: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/in_silico/< ]

Both forms of D have pronounced effects on things like thyroid hormones, those who experience the rapid conversion literally go through the full range of hypo to hyperthyroid during as it converts. Over about 5 hours for them.

If you don't think those are speculations, theories, preliminaries, or whatever, I won't try to convince you. If you think they are, then I will say that theorizing is essential (what is now prov'd was once, only imagin'd)... it's just that the great bulk of it doesn't come out in the end. Try reading a few issues of the journal Medical Hypotheses - ten thousand ideas... each one more than sane... yet precious few will ever be borne out empirically. We desperados all select certain theories to act on, alongside certain observations, but... “Tell me what you know, then tell me what you don’t know, and only then tell me what you think. Always keep those three separated.” I myself have failed in that repeatedly, but I keep trying to remember it.

I am one CAPi patient who has been following the MPi since it's inception. I have followed every patient who started with Trevor. It is important to remember this: NONE of them are cured. Even Trevor is still on Benicar and low dose abxi. Meaning, we do not know that it is a curative protocol. There is NO EVIDENCE suggesting this is so (as he claims). Many patients (who have been on it since the beginning) are better, but far from CURED, and are still having many problems. What I have seen on CAP is that some (after a few years or so) are back to their lives and OFF THE ABXi. I, for one, am back to hiking (from barely walking without complete exhaustion) and working full time, socializing etc..after 1 yr on CAP. I still have 1 abx to add but have come A LONG WAY and am thankful. I am not pointing fingers, only looking at objective evidence and deciding what is best for me. Be well all. Chris since 11/06 for CFSi. Cpni, Myco P, CMV, HHV-6 infectionsi. Doxyi 200mg daily, Zithromax 250mg MWF. NACi 2250mg daily. All other supplementsi.
CAPi since 11/06 for Cpni, Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Myco P, CMV, HHV-6 infectionsi. Rifampin 600mg daily, Zithromax 500mg daily. NACi 2250mg daily. All other supplementsi. Now Bicillin LA 2.4 mil injection weekly.

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