Cathelicidins and LTB4
Hi All,
Just ran across an interesting study suggesting that Leukotriene B4 (LTB4) and the Human Antimicrobial Peptide LL-37 (Cathelicidin) may work in a positive feedback loop, meaning they may both stimulate each other for enhanced immunei response:
I've mentioned before how I thought using a 5-LOX inhibitor seemed to dramatically increase my infection prior to when I started CAPi therapy, and I've mentioned past studies which seemed to suggest 5-LOX inhibitors can increase infection rates, but I found this study particularly interesting.
Remember 5-LOX inhibitors, and dual COX and 5-LOX inhibitors inhibit the production of leukotrienes, including LTB4:
Also remember studies seem to suggest that Vitamin D3 likely helps induce Human Cathelicidin production (LL-37) as has been mentioned on this site before:
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Some additional apparent
Some additional apparent 5-lipoxygenase inhibitors or LTB4 blockers are:
Treatment for Rosaceai
try salt..10 gramms
try salt..10 gramms aday-
this increases Elastase--elastase is the thing to boost ll37
see townsend newsletter and lyme disease oral salt for lyme
cheers chris
cfsi,lyme,fibro..bartonella,chlamyd pn and trach,ricketsia,coxiella,hhv6,ebvi
did jadin protocoll,marshall protocoll,npow on doxy200mg every day,metronidazole 1stpulse 8 days,start AZitr on saturday 21.11.08
Sorry, Louise. Fixed
Treatment for Rosaceai
Red, would you be able to
Red, would you be able to add the website address directly the link is not working for me.
Thanks, Louise
An additional potential
An additional potential herbal dual COX and 5-LOX inhibitor (note that there are few studies on this):
Resveratrol
Treatment for Rosaceai
An additional apparent Drug
An additional apparent Drug 5-LOX inhibitor:
Celebrex
Might this be the reason for many of the infection-related side-effects that have been reported with this drug?
Treatment for Rosaceai
An additional herbal 5-LOX
An additional herbal 5-LOX inhibitor:
Lyprinol
Treatment for Rosaceai
Ah, the green tea shake
Ah, the green tea shake sounds really great right now. I'll have to try it sometime, although I'm a coffee fan, myself. A little coffee, a little icecream, one excellent shake (and one VERY BIG BUZZ!).
Glad to hear your rate of kill has been better the last few months. Let's hope it continues!
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Thanks goes to you, Red!
Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpni. CAPi since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NACi,BHRT, MethyB12 FIRi Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath
Gosh Raven that's so good to
Gosh Raven that's so good to hear. THANKS! Is your doc, DR P in Sacramento by any chance?
I've actually been kind of discouraged that I haven't been able to convince anyone that 5-LOX inhibitors may really be hindering recovery. I've been completely convinced since my own experience with Boswellia prior to CAPi. Unfortunately I let a couple of "experts" on brain tumors convince me that I might be wrong, and my brother ended up with TM, which I'm convince the Boswellia played a good part in.
Let's hope other docs start to take notice of the increasing evidence that blocking LTB4 MAY really be a VERY bad thing. It may provide some short-term decrease in symptoms at the expense of making you sicker long-term...
Thanks again. You really made my evening to hear that I'm not completely crazy about this!
And I am so glad to hear that you are off curcumin. Be sure to avoid the other 5-LOX inhibitors and LTB4 blockers on the list in this thread too (after discussing with your doctor of course
)
BTW, there are some studies that suggest that catechins in green tea have 5-LOX inhibiting (and therefore LTB4 inhibiting qualities). Here's one:
Effects of green tea catechin on polymorphonuclear leukocyte 5'-lipoxygenase activity, leukotriene B4 synthesis, and renal damage in diabetic rats.Enjoying a little green tea (or any other food or drink) probably isn't going to do that much harm, but it may make sense to avoid loading up on it, not to mention avoiding large quantities from supplementsi, etc while you're trying to get better...
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Red, I just got
Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpni. CAPi since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NACi,BHRT, MethyB12 FIRi Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath
Hi all, Just ran across
Hi all,
Just ran across another study indicating the importance of Leukotriene B4 for induction of Cathelicidins:
Leukotriene B4 Induces Release of Antimicrobial Peptides in Lungs of Virally Infected MiceOn Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Thanks Raven. Hang in
Thanks Raven. Hang in there. I hope the next pulse is an easy one...
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Red, I did a little
Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpni. CAPi since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NACi,BHRT, MethyB12 FIRi Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath
Hi Raven, I'm loving the FIR
Hi Raven,
I'm loving the FIRi Sauna too on these "cold SoCal winter" nights...
I can't thank all you early sauna adopters enough for turning me on to it...
Let us know what your doctor says about 5-LOX inhibiting agents. I'd certainly be interested...
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIR Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Wow, did some more searching
Wow, did some more searching and found several more studies along these lines:
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Norman- I finally stopped
Norman- I finally stopped taking Quercitin a couple months ago as I did not think it was helping me. I actually had started with it way before the CAPi treatment because it has been helpful for IC and prostatitus. I had some vague sense it was making things more difficult for me over the last months though. I'd been a bit suspicious about it because, while I liked the efflux pump affect, this study was in the back of my mind since almost when I started the site:
In vivo treatment of acute Chlamydia pneumoniae infection with the flavonoids quercetin and luteolin and an alkyl gallate, octyl gallate, in a mouse model.Törmäkangas L, Vuorela P, Saario E, Leinonen M, Saikku P, Vuorela H.National Public Health Institute, Oulu, Finland. liisa.tormakangas@ktl.fi
Increasing evidence suggests that plant polyphenolic compounds may protect from cardiovascular diseasesi, which have been addressed to their antioxidative properties. In addition, these compounds have been shown to possess anti-inflammatory and anti-microbial potential. In the present study we tested the effects of two flavonoid compounds, quercetin and luteolin, and one alkyl gallate, octyl gallate, on the course of acute Chlamydia pneumoniae infection in vivo. C57BL/6J mice were treated with quercetin, luteolin or octyl gallate for 3 days prior to and 10 days after C. pneumoniae inoculation. Lung tissue was analysed for the presence of chlamydia by culture and quantitative PCRi, and inflammatory responses were assessed. Luteolin was found histologically to suppress inflammationi in lung tissue, the development of C. pneumoniae-specific antibodies and the presence of chlamydia in lung tissue. Octyl gallate had no significant effect on the course of infection, but quercetin increased both the inflammatory responses and the chlamydial load in the lungs. The infection and inflammation-enhancing effects of quercetin treatment may be attributable to the dose and the route of administration and should be reassessed in further studies with lower doses or with different metabolites of the compound. Contrariwise, the effects of luteolin treatment suggest this compound to have potential in decreasing the infection load and inflammatory reactions in vivo.
PMID: 16139801 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Bold text added by me. Obviously, one study does not a conclusion make, and the comment on the method of admin and such. Does back up the use of luteolin though!
CAP for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi, 500mg MWF Azith, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Cytotec 100mg, Plaquenil 100mg, Magnascent Iodine 12 drps/day, T4 & T3
CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral
Hmm, and quercetin is on
Thanks Red! I will
Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpni. CAPi since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NACi,BHRT, MethyB12 FIRi Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath
BTW, here's another study
BTW, here's another study suggesting that inhibiting LTB4 may lead to increase pathogen burdens, in this case even increased mortality in rats from M. tuberculosis:
Inhibition of leukotriene biosynthesis abrogates the host control of Mycobacterium tuberculosis.
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Here's a running list of
Here's a running list of some of the drugs / herbs shown via study to have possible 5-Lipoxygenase or Leukotriene B4 (LTB4) inhibiting qualities:
Drugs:
Herbals:
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Jim, I'll try to put
Jim,
I'll try to put together a good list ASAP. Meanwhile, scroll down on this page for a list of some herbal 5-LOX & Dual COX & 5-LOX inhibiting herbs (and the supporting studies):
http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/sci.cryonics/msg00081.html
And an easy to read list here (click on the links to see the supporting studies). Note that I've left known rosaceai flushing triggers off this list though (i.e. Ginger). They are in the above link:
http://rosacea-research.org/wiki/index.php/Dual_COX_%26_5-LOX_Inhibitors
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosacea 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Red- Can you list some of
Red- Can you list some of the common drugs or herbs with 5-LOX or dual COX and 5-LOX inhibiting qualities? Since I, and others, take anti-inflammatory drugs and herbs from time to time, I'd really be interested in seeing what might be inadvertantly contributing to pathogen burden. We might be a useful data pool here of anecdotal observations.
CAPi for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFSi & FMSi- Currently: 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, Tinii pulses.
A motto, not an aspiration: "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."
CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral
BTW, just ran across several
BTW, just ran across several studies while researching a "new rosaceai breakthrough" (oh, brother) that might be a good reminder that even seemingly innocuous OTC nasal decongestants and those "get the red out" eye drops that contain oxymetazoline may also contribute to this problem, since oxymetazoline has been shown to be a strong 5-LOX inhibitor itself:
Oxymetazoline Inhibits Proinflammatory Reactions: Effect on Arachidonic Acid-Derived MetabolitesDrugs.com: Oxymetazoline nasal
Drugs.com: Oxymetazoline opthalmic
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
One part I haven't mentioned
One part I haven't mentioned on cpnhelp yet is that my brother, like many GBM brain tumor patients, started taking Boswellia (a strong 5-LOX inhibitor) to help control the inflammationi in his brain, and help get him off of Decadron (a steroid). @ 3 weeks after taking a rather high dose of Boswellia, he came down with what we believe may have been the viral illness that eventually progressed into his Transverse Myelitis (TM). I also believe there is a strong link between TM and Cpn btw.
Coincidence? Maybe. But, I'm pretty sure that the boswellia I tried before starting CAPi led to a huge worsening of my rosaceai, allergies, and other inflammatory symptoms as I've mentioned on this site before.. Combine this with the "coincidental" illness my brother experienced after taking it and the studies referenced in the links above, and the evidence seems to be kind of clear, to me at least.
I feel extremely guilty about not putting up a bigger fight against my brother using boswellia. It was recommended by a non-medical "expert" researcher and long-term survivor in the GBM patient community that many GBM patients follow, it was recommended by my brother's nutritionist, and it was ok'd by my brothers doctors, all after I sent them the above studies. Their answers were basically that many GBM patients are taking it without apparent problems (although since GBMs are almost always fatal at some point I don't think this is a very good argument personally) and that there are often trade-offs in medicine. Some trade-off in my brother's case...
Please be careful about taking any drugs or herbs with 5-LOX or dual COX and 5-LOX inhibiting qualities. I'm certainly no expert, but I believe they may lead to increased pathogen burdens, possibly even further problems with the Herpes Viruses as at least one of the studies above suggests.
Again, I really think it makes sense to print out the studies and text in this thread and run them by your doctors if they are having you use any of these anti-inflammatory supplementsi. Medical treatment does (and really should in many cases) involve trade-offs. But, I believe it is EXTREMELY important that you and your doctor understand exactly what the trade-offs and their potential ramifications are before using really any drug or supplement.
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
BTW, here's a direct link to
BTW, here's a direct link to the study that I've mentioned about 5-lipoxygenase inhibitors allowing for increased strongyloide burden in rats:
Leukotrienes play a role in the control of parasite burden in murine strongyloidiasis.Perhaps the studies above explain why this is actually the case.
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Thanks for the translation.
Thanks for the translation. This makes sense so much, "might really want to discuss these studies with their doctors to see if it might really make sense to avoid taking anything with 5-LOX inhibiting action (Quercetin, Curcumin, Turmeric, etc), to allow the Vitamin D3 they are likely taking to potentially work more effectively against these other pathogens." I've taken quercetin for years first as a urinary antiinflam and then because Dr. Stratton said it can help block cellular efflux pumps, but it never has seemed much use. There is one study showing Cpni enhanced by it. Curcumin has not sat well with me, and perhaps this is why.
I would imagine that a good FIR sauna sweat may be the best way to get fat soluble porphryns out of the skin if modulated right. It's a marker of how much better you have gotten on the CAPi that you can do this now, heat intolerance being such a hallmark of Rosaceai.
CAP for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFSi & FMSi- Currently: 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, Tinii pulses.
CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral
Hi Jim, I was wondering what
Hi Jim, I was wondering what you noticed was different when you discontinued the Curcumin?
thanks
CFIDSi/ME 25yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, Cpni, (insomnia - melatonini, GABA, tarazadone, temazepam, novocyclopine, allergy formula, 2 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, 9-30-07 2nd pulse 1 X 250 mg Metroi
CFIDSi/ME, FMSi, MCS, IBSi, EBVi, CMV, Cpni, H1, chronic insomnia, Chronic Lyme, HME, Babesia, Natural HRT-menopause, NAC 2.4 gm,Full CAP 6-2-07, all supplementsi+Iodorol, Inositol-depression, ultra Chitosan, L lysine Pulse#27 04-19-10 1gm Flagyli/day-5 days<
Yeah, I also strongly
Yeah, I also strongly suspect that Boswellia, a 5-LOX inhibitor, was largely responsible for a dramatic increase in symptoms I experienced just prior to finding CAPi. Remember my first post where I discussed this (seems like ages ago now):
http://www.cpnhelp.org/cpn_rosacea_your_help_com
But for others reading this, be sure to discuss these agents with your doctors as potentially they feel the anti-inflammatory properties, etc far outweigh the risks...
You know, funny you should mention the skin porphyrin thing with fir sauna. A week or so ago I wasn't able to take the time to do the sauna for @ a week, and I sure paid for it in dry, irritated skin again. I also felt a little porphyric in general (aches, pains, fatigue, etc). Started the fir sauna back up and it all went away. I also enjoy the sauna, so it's a nice way to chase it all away...
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpn in Rosacea 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIR Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Hi Jim, Yeah, who'd have
Hi Jim,
Yeah, who'd have ever thought a rosacean might find FIRi sauna beneficial? I know I wouldn't have before trying it. And I'm finding it very beneficial as long as I don't overdo it, and I'm even able to turn it on high occasionally to get a really good sweat going!
As for the study above, it is the 3rd study I've seen that suggests that Leukotriene B4 (LTB4) may play an important role in stimulating neutrophils to release cathelicidins (LL-37), the human antimicrobial peptides that Vitamin D3 has been shown to help upregulate/induce. See the studies at top for more info on this as well.
This latest study seems to suggest that LTB4 plays an important role in host defense against the Herpes family virus, cytomegolavirus (CMV). I'm guessing it also plays a role in host defense against the other herpes viruses, not to mention other microbes as the 2nd study above points out.
While I'm certainly no expert, this suggests to me that those suffering from co-infectionsi (with the herpes family viruses, etc), might really want to discuss these studies with their doctors to see if it might really make sense to avoid taking anything with 5-LOX inhibiting action (Quercetin, Curcumin, Turmeric, etc), to allow the Vitamin D3 they are likely taking to potentially work more effectively against these other pathogens.
On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIR Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Hey Red- For the hurried
Hey Red- For the hurried and befuddled (both describe myself right now) could you give a plain English paragraph on the above? The fascinating point is just beyond my frontal lobes right now!
Also, I notice from your signature that you are doing FIRi sauna. Can you imagine, a Rosacean doing heat???!@!! You wild and crazy guy, you. I sure want a report on that one too!
CAPi for Chlamydia pneumonia since 11/04. 25yrs CFSi & FMSi- Currently: 200 Doxycycline, 500mg MWF Azithromycin, Tinii pulses.
CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dxi: 25+yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 250 aithromycin mwf, doxycycline 100mg BIDi, restarted Tinii pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3, 6mg Iodoral
Hi all, Here's another study
Hi all,
Here's another study along these lines, this time linking Leukotriene B4 with the release of cathelicidins (LL-37) and antiviral activity towards Cytomegalovirus (CMV), one of the Herpes viruses:
Leukotriene B(4)-Mediated Release of Antimicrobial Peptides against Cytomegalovirus Is BLT1 DependentOn Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai 01/06 - 07/07, On Vit D3 + NACi since 07/07 and daily FIRi Sauna since 08/07
Treatment for Rosaceai
Thanks Red! These are
Thanks Red! These are interesting papers on the relationship between inflammation and resistance to germs. Inflmmation is vilified often as being the cause of our problems but the fact is that inflammation accompanies cleanup and healing and it is almost pathognomic, ie you'd think since the inflammation is there people would say to themselves "gee I wonder what germs caused this?" rather than "I wonder how I can get rid of the inflammation". This little page HERE has no free link to the whole citation but it makes the point that CPn induces severe inflammation in the abstract we do have.
blessings
marie
On CAPi since Sept '05 for MSi, RAi, Asthmai, sciatica. EDSSi at start 5.5. Currently on: Doxy 200, Azith 3x week, Tini cont. since April '07, all supplementsi.
"Color out side the lines!"
FYI, another article along
FYI, another article along these lines was just published:
Leukotriene b4 triggers the in vitro and in vivo release of potent antimicrobial agents.On Combined Antibiotic Protocol for Cpni in Rosaceai since 01/06
Treatment for Rosaceai