Cpnhelp.org - Chlamydia Pneumoniae Treatment

Calcium Pyruvate discussion.

Louise

CFSi/ME. CPni Positive. Bb Positive.

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Louise-CFSi, CPN+/Bb+ Wheldon CAPi 6/07, Cholestyramine1-2pksHSforPorphoria& Endotoxinsi, Doxy100daily,Roxi300BID,Tini500mgBIDpulses,VitD3-4000IU,MagnascentIodine,{S.O.D.3/QD[KAL Brand],+Pyruvate3.75G+SAM-eForEnergy}

I bought Pyruvate and Creatine on the recommendation of my doctor. Tried taking both of them and one of them gave me a stomach ache (or it could have been something else--who knows). Today was my exercise day so before I got on the treadmill, I took some Creatine and some D-Ribose. Noticed I had more energy during the workout. " pyruvate enhances the transport of glucose and protein into muscle cells thereby boosting performance levels in exercise. It works by increasing amount of ATP available to the energy engines of cells, mitochondria, as well as inhibiting fat production." "ability to regenerate ATP depends on your supply of creatine. More creatine, more ATP remade, and more ability to train your muscles to their maximum potential. This greater ATP synthesis also keeps your body from relying on another energy system called glycolysis, which has lactic acid as a byproduct." So I may go back to trying both of them, just on the days I exercise. Raven CAPi since 8-05 for Cpni and Mycoplasma P. for MSi and/or CFSi

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98% well and going for 100! CAPi since 8-05 for Cpni and Mycoplasma P. for MSi and/or CFSi Also EBVi and HHV6 My grateful thanks to all the CAP docs!!!

Thanks for your perspective Raven.  Yes exercise sometime, soon I will be up to considering that modification to my treatment plan.  Juat now I need to get enough consistent energy to spontaneously do daily required tasks with reliability. 

I did lift weights in the early 1990's. really found it something that I enjoyed. And as folks with CFSi know life just got too fatigueing over time.   So I look forward to the time that I can have it all!!!

Louise CFS/ME. CPnPositive. BbPositive.

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Louise-CFSi, CPN+/Bb+ Wheldon CAPi 6/07, Cholestyramine1-2pksHSforPorphoria& Endotoxinsi, Doxy100daily,Roxi300BID,Tini500mgBIDpulses,VitD3-4000IU,MagnascentIodine,{S.O.D.3/QD[KAL Brand],+Pyruvate3.75G+SAM-eForEnergy}

Louise, I concur. I worked out regularly until the fatigue aspect of msi hit me 2 years ago. Now, with the help of your d-ribose, I am just trying to get through 3 hours of teaching 4 days a week and maybe a chore on the 5th day if I can wake up. I started physical therapy on Friday and it is supposed to help me with stamina as well as walking. Here's to daily tasks! (Isn't Daisy's husband absolutely amazing?!)

PPMSi-misdiagnosed 2001-diagnosed 2006. Minocycline 7 mos.- resulting bronchitis 5 months. Talked Hopkins neuroi. into: HRT (estriol and progesterone as neural protectant re Voskuhl,UCLA).Wheldon CAPi 3/2/07 - 200 doxyi; azith MWF. 4 pulses. Rockville,Md. Loo

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PPMSi-misdiagnosed 2001-diagnosed 2006. Also maybe csf and Lyme -- who knows?! Minocycline 7 mos.- resulting bronchitis 5 months. Deserted by Hopkins neurology dept. and going to private md. out-of-plan. Wheldon CAPi 3/2/07 - 200 doxyi; azith MWF. 5 pulses.

The instruction we got was to begin taking the sodium or calcium pyruvate in the 9th week. For Kim this would be after completing her 2nd 7-day pulse of Flagyli. The pyruvate is to be taken 1.5 grams, 30 minutes before Azithromycin. What was explained to us was that it's supposed to help get the bug out where it can be killed easier.

That's all we know as factual info.

Now as for speculation, I'd guess that there's some sort of tolerance issue since we're not starting this before Flagyl. Or the goal is to have all three ABXi working before adding the pyruvate. In any case, I didn't get the impression that the pyruvate is supposed to work in conjunction with the Flagyl, but I could be wrong. Ken

Well, I just ordered the Pyruvate so I shall see.

I have taken creatine in the past & my muscles balled up like crazy.  My husband said that is one of the side effects so I ditched it.

I will cautiously take the pyruvate as I don't want to take something that will mask the fact that my body is desperately trying to heal itself.  I just cannot be trusted; in no time I could be careening out of control on an energy buzz that would in turn open up the flood gates of the adrenaline & I would be buzzing around like a bee until I finally just fell over!

CFIDSi/ME 25yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, Cpni, (insomnia - melatonini, GABA, tarazadone, triazolam, novocycloprine, allergy formula, 3 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, 2-6-08 6th pulse 1 X 375 mg 5day

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CFIDSi/ME 32 yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, CMV, Cpni, chronic insomnia, Lymes, HME, Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, Pulse#13 1240 mg X 3 days 8-7-08

Thanks, Ken is it?  Interesting I have been finding it to give me a bit of a lift and have taken 1.5 to 2.0 grams per day for the last 4 days.  I am on pulse day #13.  it is billed as and ATP booster so that was my perspective.  And my imagination had it helping the slump of the flagyli pulse.  Proving only that one often sees only what one wants to once again!   Thanks for sharing.  

Louise CFSi/ME.CPnPositive.BbPositive.

Started6/24/07WheldonCAP.OnDoxy, Roxi,2/3/08TiniPulse#4 Completed.Cholestyramine 2 packets at Bedtime only forPorphoria and Die-off Symptoms Of Fatigue, Brainfog, MoodDisturbances,BalanceFromApoptosis.

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Louise-CFSi, CPN+/Bb+ Wheldon CAPi 6/07, Cholestyramine1-2pksHSforPorphoria& Endotoxinsi, Doxy100daily,Roxi300BID,Tini500mgBIDpulses,VitD3-4000IU,MagnascentIodine,{S.O.D.3/QD[KAL Brand],+Pyruvate3.75G+SAM-eForEnergy}

I talked to Chuck Strattoni today about this very thing. It was the first I had heard of it. He recommended I take the pyruvate and a Prilosec OTC about one hour before my antibioticsi. Based on my history with extreme muscle tightness and burning myalgia he said it should help. He also mentioned that if it's going to work, the improvement is noticeable pretty much immediately. -kk2

 

On Wheldon regime [Doxyi, Azith, and Flagyli]  for rrmsi since October '05.  Added Amoxicillini 1gm twice daily and LDNi 4.5mg qhs October '07; EDSSi was 6.5, now 5.5.  United States.

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Began Wheldon Protocol for rrmsi October '05.  Currently OFF all abxi since June 26, '08 due to severe porphyriai. Added LDN 4.5mg qhs October '07.  All supplementsi.

Interesting.  Did he say what the Prilosec does?  Is the improvement limited to how your stomach would feel?  Or is it supposed to help the pyruvate to be more effective?  Ken

I better chime in here. This is an experimental addition to the CAPi based on some clinical hypotheses. Prilosec is a proton pump inhibitor, and is speculated to slow the cellular efflux pumps that pump antibiotics out of the cells thus increasing the concentration and effectiveness of the abxi. The pyruvate is thought both to boost cellular ATP, as well as to temporarily (hence the timing) reduce some of the Cpni cellular processes that generate the most inflammatory endotoxinsi (HS60), making for less inflammatory reaction to the antibiotic kill. This is all experimental and speculative, but they've seen enough good response clinically to be using it in some cases.

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Protocol: 200mg Doxyi, 500mg MWF Azith, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Cytotec 100mg, Plaquenil 100mg, Magnascent Iodine 12 drps/day, T4 & T3

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

Thanks Jim, I appreciate that clear explanation about the pyruvate/proton pump inhibitor. It saves me from making a feeble attempt at it. -kk2 ;)

 

On Wheldon regime [Doxyi, Azith, and Flagyli]  for rrmsi since October '05.  Added Amoxicillini 1gm twice daily and LDNi 4.5mg qhs October '07; EDSSi was 6.5, now 5.5.  United States.

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Began Wheldon Protocol for rrmsi October '05.  Currently OFF all abxi since June 26, '08 due to severe porphyriai. Added LDN 4.5mg qhs October '07.  All supplementsi.

To add a few comments to Jim's... I have been using using pyruvate and omeprazole (prilosec) for almost a year based upon my premise that most of the difficulty in eradicating a Cpni infection is that it tends to remain in the persistent (cryptic) state for extended periods of time and is not particularly vulnerable to antibioticsi in that state. Pyruvate provides rapid energy to human cells and probably Chlamydia as well. It is produced as an intermediate step in glycolysis which is the predominate source of energy for cells. Since several steps and 2 ATP are required to convert glucose to pyruvate, presumably pyruvate provides a more direct pathway in providing energy to cells. And in theory at least a cell might not have enough energy to convert glucose to ATP in a severely energy depleted state. Taking pyruvate appears to induce Cpn into a replicating state which may make it more vulnerable to some antibiotics. A couple of people and I have had good success with the approach of taking 2-3 grams of pyruvate with or just before rifabutin. I do not think this has been studied enough or that the effects are profound enough that I would recommend people here try this yet though. Taking pyruvate for side effects, usually in doses of 3-6 grams, does seem to have profoundly positive effects. So for example early on when I would be very significantly effected by the antibiotic(s) I was taking, I would take a dose of pyruvate when I did not feel I could or wanted to tolerate any more side effects and it generally would provide relief within an hour or so. So anyway the jury is still out on using pyruvate prior to taking antibiotics but I can recommend using it for side effects just as many people here have been using glucose for this. Omeprazole (Prilosec OTC) is a proton pump inhibitor (PPI) that seems to have some modest effect on Cpn. As Jim noted, initially I hypothesized that this was because it might bind with proton pumps that drive some types of cellular efflux pumps. However Dr. Stratton suggests (and I think this is probably more likely) that it might be binding to proton pumps that Cpn uses when it utilizes ATP from human cells. Since this is how Cpn survives in the persistent state this might be a useful therapy adjunct. I doubt if enough omeprazole or any other PPI would get into cells outside the stomach to have a dramatic effect and even less crosses the BBBi. But Prilosec is safe, well tolerated, and available over the counter so if it works for you I cannot think of any reason not to take it. A few people and I have had pretty good success with it. - Paul

The pyruvate/Prilosec combo has really worked well for me. In just three days of use, and while on a limited Flagyli pulse, I have not needed any ibuprofen. Not even one! Now if this continues to work, I anticipate all future pulses to be on time, and wouldn't that be nice? Maybe I can finally make some headway here. -kk2

 

On Wheldon regime [Doxyi, Azith, and Flagyl]  for rrmsi since October '05.  Added Amoxicillini 1gm twice daily and LDN 4.5mg qhs October '07; EDSSi was 6.5, now 5.5.  United States.

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Began Wheldon Protocol for rrmsi October '05.  Currently OFF all abxi since June 26, '08 due to severe porphyriai. Added LDN 4.5mg qhs October '07.  All supplementsi.

KK2, could you please describe exactly when, how and how much pyruvate and prilosec you are taking? Where do you buy the pyruvate and are you likelly to get stomach problems from it without the prilosec? Also, do you take both when you are not pulsing? Thanks.

PPMSi-misdiagnosed 2001-diagnosed 2006. Minocycline 7 mos.- resulting bronchitis 5 months. Talked Hopkins neuroi. into: HRT (estriol and progesterone as neural protectant re Voskuhl,UCLA).Wheldon CAPi 3/2/07 - 200 doxyi; azith MWF. 4 pulses. Rockville,Md. Loo

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PPMSi-misdiagnosed 2001-diagnosed 2006. Also maybe csf and Lyme -- who knows?! Minocycline 7 mos.- resulting bronchitis 5 months. Deserted by Hopkins neurology dept. and going to private md. out-of-plan. Wheldon CAPi 3/2/07 - 200 doxyi; azith MWF. 5 pulses.

Hi

 This is an interesting thread for me, as i've just come across information about taking pyruvate to improve ATP levels, but I didn't know that it could have a synergistic effect with omeprazole 

I am still slightly unsure about how cpni 'uses' ATP. If it uses ATP, is it a bad thing to try to boost ATP levels, especially if you are not taking antibioticsi at the same time?

On the other hand, if Omeprazole lowers my ATP, then won't my exercise intolerance get worse? Does that mean it evens out if I take the Pyruvate and Omeprazole as a combo?

Hope these questions make sense:)

Dar

Dar (UK): lowback & limb pain, GI probs from 2002. Dx: chronic radiculopathies (MRI/Nerve), Lyme Borr (Igenix/LDR), etc.  EBV, Vit D ab,  ME/CFSi/FMSi, etc. Cpn by DFM. Doxyi ceased due to herx/GI. New Prot soon.

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Dar (UK): Severe lowback & limb pain (distal), GI probs. Dx: chronic radiculopathies (MRI/Nerve), Late Neuroi Lyme Borr (Igenix/LDR), etc.  EBV, Vit D ab,  ME/CFSi/FMSi, etc. Cpni by DFM. 600 mg NACi, 40 mg omeprazole. Trying to add Dox

Dar, I think that maybe Jim and Paul's comments above will explain the role of pyruvate and its effect on Cpni better than I can.

Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

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Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

Dar, I think that maybe Jim and Paul's comments above will explain the role of pyruvate and its effect on Cpni better than I can.

Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

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Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

I have been taking c Pyruvate for about a month now.  Since starting my eighth pulse 5 days ago I am up to 3gms a day AM.

I wonder if this has anything to do with this pulse being more difficult for me even though I am in sunny warm weather.  Does one need to take the Prilosec?  Is it a perscript or otc medicine?  adding another capsule accckkkkkk!

CFIDSi/ME 25yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, Cpni, (insomnia - melatonini, GABA, tarazadone, triazolam, novocycloprine, allergy formula, 3 gm tryptophan), Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, 8th Pulse 2 X 375 mg 3day,375 2 d

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CFIDSi/ME 32 yrs, FMSi, IBSi, EBVi, CMV, Cpni, chronic insomnia, Lymes, HME, Natural HRT peri-M, NACi 2.5 gm, 6-07 Doxy 200 mg day pm, Azith 375 mg M/W/Fday, Pulse#13 1240 mg X 3 days 8-7-08

Jim wrote, "The pyruvate is thought both to boost cellular ATP, as well as to temporarily (hence the timing) reduce some of the Cpnii cellular processes that generate the most inflammatory endotoxinsii (HS60), making for less inflammatory reaction to the antibiotic kill."

I have been all over the med lit looking for more information on how pyruvate may reduce HS60 or other endotoxins.  Anybody have any additional information?

 Intellectually I am very curious about this for many reasons and would greatly appreciate any additional scoop!

^{Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  Minoi, Roxyi, Diflucan round two 1-31, Rifampin, Bactrim DS, Prednisone, Novantrone, Doxyi, Azithromycin, Flagyli}

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Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

Daisy- This is all speculative theoretical view from Paul with input from Dr. Stratton. It's based on the biology of Cpni and the casual observations of using Pyruvate prior to abxi dosing. I hope I'm rendering Paul's thinking accurately, and as he's already posted on his experimental speculations I don't think there is any problem adding this in.

As Paul says above, "Taking pyruvate appears to induce Cpn into a replicating state which may make it more vulnerable to some antibiotics." It appears from a look into the biology of Cpn that HSP60, the most highly inflammatory endotoxini produced by Cpn, is generated most in the conversion of RB's to cryptic/persistant form. So the thinking is that, if you can induce existing cryptic to convert back to RB, which it does when it has positive conditions (such as supplies of ATP or lack of abxi), as well as get EBi's to convert to RB's, then you add an antibiotic at Cpn's most vulnerable point (while it's replicating) in protein synthesis, you kill the bug without generating as much inflammatory reaction. Similarly, it is thought that part of the difficulty of flagyli reactions is that the cryptic formi is induced into metabolic processes that generate a lot of HSP60. So this approach is an attempt to winnow down the amount of cryptic rather than force RB's into cryptic form where they can be killed by flagyl. This may not be the best approach for some conditions, such as more highly active MSi. 

You also counter porphyriai at the same time, especially by adding more pyruvate for the post-abx reactions. Paul suggests this might work best with a shorter half-life abx like Biaxin or Rifampin, as you will more likely induce cryptic to convert back to RB form when little or no abx is present in circulation (they won't come out to play if the dreaded abx is around), but I notice that Paul is experimenting with this with Rifabutin, a longer acting rifamycin, as is Dr. Stratton.

Remember, this is all speculation theoretically, but the informal clinical experiments have been suggestively positive. They are hoping to test this out in the new Chlamydia Lab soon.

Both Doxyi and Azith have quite long half lives, so in my own initial experiments I used some left over Roxyi I had on hand and Bactrim DS. Roxy has a shorter half life than doxy. Dr. Stratton has been using a single antibiotic for this approach, as from the theoretical understanding you are not trying to force the Cpn into the cryptic state to be killed by flagyl, but rather are trying to force it out of the cryptic state where it can be killed with less cost to your body. Using roxy/Bactrim alone, along with the pyruvate and prilosec, at the end of two weeks when I ran out of roxy I felt noticeably better, especially more clear headed. I then tried it with Biaxin/Bactrim, and have never felt good with it no matter how much pyruvate I have used. Other's experience with Biaxin was just the opposite: they felt great.

Currently I am trying this with Rifampin while awaiting another order of roxy. I've never been able to tolerate Rifampin for long, so I'm interested if this method makes it tolerable. Dr. Stratton has been able to use it with patients who have never been willing to get treated for Cpn because of the difficulty of their reactions (and they have not been sick enough to be motivated otherwise) with great success. Interestingly, there is evidence that Rifampin also has effect on cryptic/persistent Cpn on it's own. Taking 5 grams of the stuff (the pyruvate) is quite a chore as they are 1 gram horse-pills, then by three or four grams more when the reactions hit. I've just started, so can't report anything other than I'm still here to tell about it! I'm leavig my signature as it was so as not to confuse newbies about the CAPi, as this is a personal experiment.

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Protocol: 200mg Doxy, 250mg MWF Azith, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

Jim - Loads of pearls in this response (as usual)- Thanks!

^{Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  Minoi, Roxyi, Diflucan round two 1-31, Rifampin, Bactrim DS, Prednisone, Novantrone, Doxyi, Azithromycin, Flagyli}

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Daisy - Husband on CAPi 5/07.  "When Going Thru Hell, Just Keep Going", Winston Churchill

Jim, I was wondering how do you manage the calcium pyruvate (CP) with your thyroid medicine in AM?  what is your schedule?  

Mphs, TN. CFSi, hypoT (Hashi), adrenal fatigue, 37 w/hormones of 80,. right arm neuropathy. + cpni, myco, EBVi, CMV. NACi 4000mg, doxyi 100-2xday, azith 250 m/w/f/sun, progesterone, estriol, synthroid, pulse flagyli, tinii<

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Mphs, TN. CFSi, hypoT (Hashi), adrenal fatigue, 37 w/hormones of 80,. right arm neuropathy. + cpni, myco, EBVi, CMV. NACi 4000mg, doxyi 100-2xday, azith 250 m/w/f/sun, progesterone, estriol, synthroid, pulse flagyli, tinii<

 Darn, posted on this and it disappeared. The website is acting up lately. Badly needs maintenance and protection from spammers!

First, a caution on pyruvate. If used prior to abxi it may actually potentiate their effect, i.e. give you stronger reactions, to the degree it gets cryptic Cpni to convert back to RB's, which are more vulnerable to the abxi like doxyi and azith/roxyi.  Used when you are having reactions from abx or metronidazolei, it can help alleviate some of these reactions by providing more ATP to counter porphyriai and give cellular energy for detox. 

This is all speculative based on clinical observations (not mine, a couple of experts), so recognize that if you are using it before the abx you are in experimental mode. Capish?

Sharon- Basically it's a trial. I take the thyroid first thing and prior to lunch. Pyruvate (because the calcium) at least an hour later. That means I have to hold off the abx until another hour, which may not coincide with meals. Quite a puzzle sometimes. All I can say is my schedule of things like meals and such is quite erratic of late. 

CAP for Cpn 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Protocol: 200mg Doxy, 250mg MWF Azith, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D1000 units, Iodoral 50mg, T4 & T3

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CAPi for Cpni 11/04. Dx: 25yrs CFSi & FMSi. Currently: 150mg BID Roxithromycin, Doxycycline 100mg BID, Tinii 1000mg/day pulses; Vit D2000 units, T4 & T3

I've been giving thought to starting on pyruvate.  I think that reading what's here, I'll give it a try.  It's relatively inexpensive where I by most of my supplementsi, so why not.  Based on some of the theory described here, I think it might be a good addition. 

all my best

John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, now 4.??? on Wheldon Protocol (naci, doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily on 08/19/2007

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all my best

John

RRMSi/EDSSi was 4.5, 5, now 6 on Wheldon Protocol (naci, doxycycline, azithromycin, metronidazolei) since 04/12/2006. Added Rifampin 2x150mg/daily 08/19/2007. Added INHi 300mg/daily 03/17/2008 stopped 05/08

First principle of Cpnhelp members: we are lab rats.

Second Principle  of Cpnhelp members: we are patient lab rats

Third Principle of Cpnhelp members: we are patient, courageous lab rats.

Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

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Michèle (UK) GFAi: Wheldon CAPi 1st May 2006. Daily Doxyi, Azi MWF, metroi pulse. Zoo keeper for Ella, RRMSi, At worse EDSSi 9, 3 months later 7 now 5.5 Wheldon CAP 16th March 2006

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