Biofilm

I'm reading a lot of things about biofilms. They are a problem in the commercial world. It seems common knowledge that they are also found in the body. How to eradicate the biofilms in vivo is the question. One article equates Iron with Biofilms. The title was No Iron = No Biofilm. The author suggested Lactoferrin was a good way to sequester Iron and weaken biofilms. I read a study with Lactoferrin and animals. Lactoferrin prevented the formation of biofilm but they found it did not break down the existing biofilms.

Another recent article someone engineered a virus with a gene from a fibrolytic enzyme and it was very successful in breaking down biofilms in vitro. Sounds promising.

 http://www.hhmi.org/news/lu20070605.html

The chelator EDTA was used by one doctor to grab heavy metals that were "liberated" from biofilms. Another article seemed to think the EDTA would take the minerals right out of the biofilms themselves breaking down the biofilm. This article thought that calcium was a major component of biofilms.

Today I added serrapeptase to the Natto and Lumbro and Bromelain I have been taking. Two capsules and I got a huge and prolonged case of reflux. Very uncomfortable and nothing helped. I tried Ox Bile, Charcoal and Chitosan to soak up what felt like a toxic bile dump.

Today I got a decent headache. Garlic, Oregano Oil and Olive leaf seem to work good as antibiotic. The pattern is about 2 hours after breakfast I take the enzymes, 15 minutes later the EDTA. About an hour after the antibiotic herbs (about 6 caps) an hour later 3 chitosan caps, maybe 3 more after another hour.

 

Comments

Biofilms and EDTA

Been doing EDTA for heavy metals for a few months now. It seems to bring viruses out to play. Have had to up my dosage of Lauricidin.

Found this study about EDTA and biofilms. My doctor also has me using the Byron White formula A-BIO for biofilms. The EDTA is in suppository form and is made up by a compounding pharmacy. I also take  Source Naturals Heavy Metals supplement to replenish minerals.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1393226/

 

Also, fresh pineapple is excellent as a source of bromelain. The core is supposed to have the highest concentration. Lots of vitamin C and fiber. I would eat at least one whole pineapple a week. You will notice a difference in energy levels. And vitamin C--lots of it. Mix it in something you drink throughout the day to get a steady level over time.

Raven

Feeling 98% well-going for 100. Very low test for Cpni. CAPi since 8-05 for Cpn/Mycoplasma P.,Lyme, Bartonella, Mold exposure,NACi,BHRT, MethyB12 FIRi Sauna. 1-18-11 begin new treatment plan with naturopath

Biofilms

Dr. Tim Lu - Biofilms and Phage Therapy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eQhNyX7DRQ&feature=share

very good

Est, Can you say a bit about

Est, Can you say a bit about his agressive treatment regimen?

And regarding the use of Heparin as you mention any idea of the duration of the treatment regimen for the heprinization in the Japanese research.

I was heparinized post-surgery about 13 years ago prohylactically ( to prevent venous thrombosis and potential blood clots from forming from inactivity on bedrest,  I also had ace bandages to compress my legs up to the groins, as I was on complete bedrest post Gyn reconstructive surgical procedure for 4-5 days.  And of course, also on prophylactic Abx IV a gram of ampicillin and gentamycin is was pretty standard back then during gyn surgery, and also a bit post op perhaps 24 - 48 hours?  I would have to go over my chart which is boxed up at this point.   

I now recall an interesting experience that I had post op, which could have been a die off experience now that I think of it.  

I had zero energy, not even enough to partipate in the bed bath which I tried to refuse.   A real pushy nurse insisted and soaked me down.  I was experiencing a super chilled state to start with, and once the water hit my skin, I started in with shaking chills all over, and the bath water was quite adequately warm to touch.   My teeth were chattering and I couldn't stop them.  Really, I didn't really need the bath!     I have given many a bedbath and have never seen a reaction like the one I had.  Perhaps the heparin played into the effect?  No one forced the issue of bathing again during the rest of my stay!

Interesting to ponder the experience from my situation and Chronic Persistent Bacterial infective state now known and treated.    My early experience on abxi in July 2007 had me freezing and covering up and wearing a polartec full length bathrobe when the room temp was hovering around 80F.  

Thanks Est, for you interesting comment.   Hope you can answer my question above if you read those papers.     Louise  

  • CAPi(TiniOnly): 06/07-02/09 for CFSi
  • MethylationProtocolSupplements: Started08/08
  • Intermtnt CAP: 02/09-02/10
  • Full MethylProtocol & LDNi 02/09
  • Off CAP: 02/10, cont LDN & MethlyProtocol support

Those interested in the

Those interested in the subject of biofilms might want to check out the work of Dr. Randall Wolcott.  He is one of those courageous Docs who is ignoring conventianal wisdom and literally saving life and limb of many diabetics with diabetic wounds by aggressively treating bacterial biofilms.  I think he works in close association with researchers at Colorado State U.

On the subject of heparin, there was an interesting paper from a Japanese research team showing eradication of Babesia species with heparin.  Hmm.  So heparin may not only be compensating for genetic coagulationproblems but also acting as an antimicrobial for some protozoal species.

Borrelia, Bartonella, RMSF, Babesia, Mycoplasma, Cpni, EBVi, HHV6. GFAi, FM, CFSi, seronegative Sjogren's, hypothyroid, diabetes, neuropathy, leukopenia, anemia, memory.  Bicillin 3xweek, Factive 5days 2xmonthly, LDNi, many supps/herbs

You're not the only one, by

You're not the only one, by the way, to note that the medical community is lagging in its knowledge of biofilms; one good review of medical biofilm issues states: Now that we concede that bacteria form biofilms in essentially the same manner in whatever ecosystem they inhabit, it is important that we take full advantage of the elegant studies of this process that fill the environmental and industrial microbiology literature. The scientific and engineering community has already examined biofilm formation in some detail and has published a couple of books (30, 113) on this subject. Many aspects of biofilm formation are counterintuitive, and it may be useful to summarize these issues, so that the medical community does not repeat this work. That's from this article.

These articles mention

These articles mention biofilms forming on medical implants. I know two people who had hip joint replacements fail because of infection. The artificial joints had to be removed permanently.

minocycline, azithromycine, metronidazole 2007-2009, chelation for lead poisoning, muscle pain, insomnia, interstitial cystitisi (almost well), sinus, dry eyes, stiff neck, veins, hypothyroid, TMJ, hip joints (no longer hurt)

The stomach is only the

The stomach is only the first hurdle to clear. These enzymes are themselves proteins, and so are torn apart by the body's own digestive enzymes. Then they have to be absorbed by the lining of the small intestine, which is designed to reject intact proteins, and absorb only amino acids (and maybe small peptides). Then they have to make it past the liver, which receives all the blood coming from the small intestine, and tries to destroy things that have been absorbed but shouldn't have been. The word "systemic" applies to something that already got past this process; fibrinolytic enzymes have no special ticket through.

Like all biochemical processes, this process is imperfect; so a few molecules do get through. But the resulting concentration of enzymes is much, much lower than the concentration of them that one would, for instance, add to meat to tenderize it. They're perhaps best thought of as being like herbal medicine: an herb can have all sorts of effects, but one can't figure out those effects via mechanistic reasoning, since one doesn't know what the active ingredient is, or how it works; instead one has to do studies giving the herb to patients, and analyze the results statistically. For some of these enzymes, those studies have been done, albeit on a small scale; when I first started questioning whether enzymes could really get through the digestive process, Garcia pointed me to a book which cited studies showing that various of these enzymes, notably bromelain, did actually have clinical effects. But then when it went on to examine possible mechanisms for the effects of bromelain, it didn't talk about anything like the bromelain enzyme itself dissolving accumulations of crud -- instead it was talking about research into the various signaling pathways in the body that might be affected by an enzyme cleaving some signaling molecule; it also said there was a fair chance that some non-enzymatic effect of the molecule was responsible for its clinical action. (It wouldn't be hard to go one step further, and wonder whether it's the enzymes themselves that have the effect, or whether it might be some minor ingredient in the pills that gets into the body better than the enzymes do.)

Clinicians are generally pretty busy people; when one of them comes up with a concept like pathogens being hidden in fibrin deposits and then exposed when one takes fibrinolytic enzymes, he generally doesn't have the time and resources to nail it down -- which would mean, for starters, figuring out where these deposits might be, and biopsying them and proving that there are actually enough pathogens in them to cause an effect when released.

nspiker - Terrific to hear

nspiker - Terrific to hear that the enzymes are helping you so much. You might fall into Lassesen's CFSi subtype of those with a genetic coagulation defect. Ken mentioned that addressing the coagulation issue could reap major improvements. He discusses Heparin:

"Because your own heparin may have a missing component (defect), this new heparin will compensate for what you are deficient in and you should start feeling better -- in some cases, a major improvement may happen within a week."

Your ailment  and genetic makeup might be very close to Ken if you are benefiting so much from his suggestions. Did you check out the papers of his Dr. Jadin? Might have some more useful stuff for you.

Norman - I try to separate marketing literature from real information. Chlorella had a ton of marketing stuff aying it chelated mercury yet I couldn't find anything to back that up.  The Fibrinolytic information came from clinicians which I feel much more comfortable about than someone trying to sell me supplementsi.

There seems to be a variety of biofilm and the bacteria that form them in the commercial world. Hopefully we'll get some more specific information about them regarding CFS/LYME in the near future.

I thought the fibrinolytic enzymes being systemic vs. the digestive enzymes much more easily entered the blood as long as they are properly coated to get past the stomach.

Doxyi 100mgx2, Azithromycin 250mg MWF, Probiotics: PB8, JarrowDophilus. CFSi since 2003. Last 5+ years lots of the usual research (Depression, Adrenal Fatigue, HPA, Mercury, Candida, Thyroid, etc.). iherb.com $5 coupon code: HAW103

There's nothing disreputable

There's nothing disreputable about biofilms in general. The last I heard, there weren't many scientists studying them; but it wasn't like those people were outcasts or anything; it was just that the subject wasn't a "sexy" one with lots of funding. That may even be for the best; many if not most of the major advances in science have come from relatively small groups of people, whereas thundering herds often charge off in the wrong direction.

On the other hand, I'm not sure where this idea of taking enzymes to dissolve biofilms came from, or how it could possibly work: when one takes enzymes orally, only a tiny fraction gets into the bloodstream -- not really enough to do serious dissolving. (Fibrin is a different matter; the body has its own fibrin-dissolving system, so the enzymes that got through wouldn't have to do a lot of dissolving of fibrin, by themselves: they could just trigger the body's own system.)

Proteolytic enzymes aren't even necessarily the right thing in the first place, to dissolve biofilms; from what I've read, the slime of biofilms consists mainly of polysaccharides, with proteins only a minor ingredient; and proteolytic enzymes, which are most of the enzymes being talked about, only dissolve proteins. The above-mentioned study which programmed phages to generate enzymes used an enzyme called "Dispersin B", which "hydrolyzes β-1,6-N-acetyl-d-glucosamine, a crucial adhesin needed for biofilm formation and integrity in Staphylococcus and E. coli". (That quote is from the full text of the article, which is freely available here.) E. coli is the species they were using it against; if they were targeting a different species, they'd likely need a different enzyme for best results. (According to this article, "...the enzymes required to degrade the matrix differ between species...".) That's not to say proteolytic enzymes would be absolutely useless. In general, the slime of biofilms contains a mix of all sorts of ingredients, including proteins; so proteolytic enzymes would probably at least loosen it up a bit. But they're likely nowhere near optimal.

Biohazard,I just wanted to

Biohazard,

I just wanted to thank you for your previous post, which included the info on biofilm and the lassesen website.  I have been taking bromelain for a few weeks now, and it has been a miracle drug for me.  From the first pill taken, I could feel the fibronogen relax in my legs, which had been so stiff and tight.  I am now up to 6/day, and am going to add the nattokinase and/or serrapeptase.

You are correct in assuming these fibrinolytic enzymes should be taken on an empty stomach. 

What is your opinion of Neprinol, instead of mixing and matching these ourselves?   I know it is expensive, but worth it, if it works.  Then again, I love the bromelain by Thorne, and would not want to change because it's so effective.

I was reading about bromelain, and it is amazing how much it can help with this process; assisting in penetrating the biocfilm, increasing antibiotic penetration, increasing antibiotic potency, anti-inflamatory,  fibrolytic activity, and protein digestion and absorbtion.

CFSi (EBVi, HHV-6, CMV, Coxsackie), Reactive Arthritis; mycoplasma hominis, toxoplasmosis, lyme negative, babesia equivocal. Minocin, zithromax, tindamax, mepron, lariam, bromelain, probiotics, ALA, apple pectin, etc.  IV clindamycin `1200 mg. seven days/mo

Norman - thanks for the

Norman - thanks for the comment. I'm not sure why but Lactoferrin seems to give me a decent energy boost. I read it inhibited CMV. I already knew it attracted Iron but don't suspect that might have anything to do with the extra energy.

I hadn't had any reflux for the couple of weeks I've been taking that handful of enzymes until I added Serrapeptase. This morning without the Serrapeptase I had very minor reflux that only lasted 5 minutes or so. I made sure to drink plenty of water. I am under the impression the enzymes should be taken on an empty stomach. Is this something you agree with. Seems just about anything will be more effective if taken far away from food.

The phage thing is interesting. Mostly to be because it help validate biofilms as a problem and to see that someone is working on solutions. Sometimes its very easy to feel isolated and forgotten by the medical est.

 

Doxyi 100mgx2, Azithromycin 250mg MWF, Probiotics: PB8, JarrowDophilus. CFSi since 2003. Last 5+ years lots of the usual research (Depression, Adrenal Fatigue, HPA, Mercury, Candida, Thyroid, etc.). iherb.com $5 coupon code: HAW103

Bacteria don't just need

Bacteria don't just need iron to make biofilms; they need it for lots of other things, too. Without iron, they can't grow and flourish. The body tries hard to keep iron away from bacteria. There is very little free iron in the blood, for instance; instead it is locked up inside the protein "transferrin".

As for getting "a huge and prolonged case of reflux" from those enzyme capsules, that is a lot of enzymes; and enzymes do chew on the lining of your gut. The lining is constantly regenerated, to compensate for the chewing on it that the body's natural digestive enzymes do; but when you dump in lots of additional enzymes, gut distress is not surprising.

As for phages, they solve the problem of getting the enzymes to the right place. They replace it, though, with the problems of (1) figuring out what germ is infecting you, (2) finding a phage that targets that specific germ, and (3) getting that phage past your body's defenses.

I think I want to be a

I think I want to be a guinea pig for those enhanced phages. I am taking the oral chelator OSR, and am reacting strongly to it.

minocycline, azithromycine, metronidazole 2007-2009, chelation for lead poisoning, muscle pain, insomnia, interstitial cystitisi (almost well), sinus, dry eyes, stiff neck, veins, hypothyroid, TMJ, hip joints (no longer hurt)

biofilms

I just started taking Zeolite, a volcanic mineral that is supposed to grab hold of lead and iron. It releases electrons.

minocycline, azithromycine, metronidazole 2007-2009, chelation for lead poisoning, muscle pain, insomnia, interstitial cystitisi (almost well), sinus, dry eyes, stiff neck, veins, hypothyroid, TMJ, hip joints (no longer hurt)